--- Log opened Wed May 22 00:00:03 2013
--- Day changed Wed May 22 2013
00:00 < warren> If someone UXTO spammed that chain, it would be weeks before anyone noticed.  "Why is namecoind using 1.5GB of ram?"
00:00 < amiller> ok well not from dead lost txs but like, just having lots of names registered
00:00 < amiller> i don't remember the financial model for namecoin whether there's a fee per name or w/e
00:00 < gmaxwell> amiller: good problem to have. use utxo-spv resolvers and a lot of caching. :P
00:01 < gmaxwell> amiller: mining gives you 'namecoins' and there is a system imposed minimum fee for names. the idea is that its a closed loop ... miners get coins to make the chain go.. people buy them to get names.
00:02 < gmaxwell> merged mining meant the 90% of the hashpower was a couple miners that didn't really give a shit about the whole thing... and so no one manually propped the fees up when the system minimums became obviously too low.
00:02 < amiller> ok so the minimum fee + renewal rate, at least is a bounded kind of per-storage fee
00:02 < amiller> what's the bloatiest thing you can put in a namecoin registration, some weird mappings or sub rules or something?
00:03 < gmaxwell> the minimum fee geometrically declined however ... even faster after the merged mining hardfork because the dev was pissed off at speculation of the coins.
00:03 < gmaxwell> amiller: I think you can mine 10kb of whatever the @#$#@ you want.
00:04 < amiller> why mine as opposed to just make a tx
00:04 < amiller> unless your point is specific to coinbase tx outputs
00:05 < zooko> gmaxwell: exciting idea about launching a namecoin with integration to the legacy name system!
00:05 < zooko> Somebody get a few million from a VC and do that.
00:06 < zooko> I had thought that a really good hack would be to grant the new-name to anyone who proved ownership of the old-name. Grandfather-in as many people as you can.
00:06 < zooko> By "new-name" I mean namecoin-like-thing, and by old-name I mean DNS/PKI.
00:06 < gmaxwell> zooko: I proposed it back at the time. I suggested they premine 200,000 coins and then sell them at a fixed rate of $1 and use the funds to buy the tld.
00:06 < gmaxwell> zooko: thats a neat idea. prevent the idiot registrations of google.bit / nike.bit / coke.bit that were sure to cause trouble.
00:06 < zooko> gmaxwell: great! Do you have a job? I'll tell any VCs that ask me that they should invest $10M in your name system.
00:07 < zooko> gmaxwell: yeah, get more people on your side from the start.
00:07 < zooko> You don'
00:07 < zooko> t need to extract money from those people right at the start...
00:08 < gmaxwell> hah! I do, and you'll drag it out of my cold dead hands. :P  But yea, seems "obviously smart" to me to focus on the legacy tie in. People can install the secure resolvers later.
00:08 < zooko> What's your job?
00:08 < gmaxwell> and yea, great idea to discourage the squatting.
00:10 < gmaxwell> zooko: mozilla pays me to do research and development of next generation multimedia format stuff (I'm one of the developers of Ogg, for example). And if I didn't have a job I'd just still be doing that.  I still have like another whole billion dollar codec rent seeking industry to defeat before I can put full attention to dismantling the billion dollar name rent seeking industry and the trillion dollar banking rent seeking industry.
00:12 < zooko> gmaxwell: oh yeah, I remember you helped me compile opusdec. :-)
00:12 < zooko> Mozilla is awesome.
00:12 < zooko> But, you kind of sound like me. Too loyal.
00:13 < zooko> I was just trying to come up with a justification for myself of why I'm banging away at this secure storage company and not launching a secure distributed name company.
00:14 < gmaxwell> I'm fortunate enough that I can afford to be!  I think storage is a far more interesting problem. Naming is mostly interesting by historical accident I think.
00:14 < zooko> I mean, did you just say you had to finish doing X before doing Y and Z, where Z was worth 1000* as much as X?
00:14 < zooko> Well, that's a good point.
00:14 < zooko> I really wish people would stop using names where pointers would suffice.
00:14 < gmaxwell> have to multiply by the chance of success. :P
00:15 < gmaxwell> yea, I believe (but have no data) that most domain name usage is following links.. uh. you have an 'authoritative' source for where the link should take you already!
00:15 < gmaxwell> er, well not 'where' but 'to whom'
00:15 < zooko> Yeah, for sure.
00:16 < zooko> I was afraid that the Bitcoin payment protocol was adding a layer of insecurity to Bitcoin.
00:16 < zooko> I'm still half afraid of that.
00:16 < zooko> Certainly the way Gavin and others talk about it is confused in a way that would lead to that.
00:16 < zooko> But, there is an actual use for the names in there that I can't think of a better solution for.
00:17 < gmaxwell> I think it's just making a layer of insecurity that already exists a little more visible.  Where did you get that bitcoin address that you want to pay to.  But also removing some insecurity: the payment protocol implementation will not let you override a certificate failure with a dialog.
00:17 < zooko> Eh, I think that is somewhat confused.
00:17  * gmaxwell will discuss later, I have to run.
00:17 < zooko> But somewhat right.
00:17 < zooko> Bye!
00:19 < warren> sipa: coblee is granting you access to our private github
02:26 < warren> gmaxwell: well, the next litecoin release will be a lot more conservative in changes than I wanted.  Just proving they can handle a rebase without breaking things might be a good first step for them.
10:18 < realazthat> gmaxwell: hi, is there any new material on Ben-Sasson's work?
17:03 < warren> sipa: want a pull request for secp256k1 gitian changes?
17:04 < warren> although I'm not certain of the best way to include secp256k1 as an input
17:04 < gmaxwell> realazthat: not yet, I'm really busy this week and next, so I haven't asked him for anything yet.
17:05 < gmaxwell> (next week I'm hosting a coding party to bring in a bunch of additional people on the video codec project I work on)
17:06 < realazthat> ah thats cool
17:06 < realazthat> if you hear anything, I'd appreciate a highlight in here, if you remember
17:07 < gmaxwell> set a highlight on SCIP and I'll probably mention that while blabbering about it in here. :)
17:07 < realazthat> lol, done
--- Log closed Thu May 23 00:00:16 2013