--- Log opened Wed Aug 07 00:00:07 2013
17:17 < amiller> i think i'm narrowing in on a composition rule for bitcoin
17:17 < amiller> this is basically an all new idea
17:18 < amiller> the most exciting part is that it seems to be an approach for having smaller networks that are secure in a different way, that compose to form a larger global network like bitcoin
17:18 < amiller> by "secure in a different way", I mean in particular secure against a *distant* attacker
17:19 < amiller> bitcoin's security model is the special case at the global extreme, where the attacker is assumed to be bounded only in power, but not bounded in proximity
17:21 < amiller> suppose you have a small local subnetwork
17:21 < amiller> and your attacker, e..g, lukedashjr, is far more powerful than you, but further away
17:22 < amiller> it's feasible you can achieve some notion of security, in otherwise the same setting as bitcoin (no PKI or trusted administrator etc)
17:23 < amiller> the approach is basically to have a best-chain-selection rule that includes *total interaction* and not just *total work*
17:24 < amiller> the massive remote mining farm can out-compute you, but it can't "out-interact" you
--- Log closed Wed Aug 07 17:25:40 2013
--- Log opened Wed Aug 07 17:25:44 2013
17:30 < gmaxwell> amiller: hm. this is starting to sound vaguely like how the darknet DHTs (cjdns, freenet) achieve security against sybils.
17:32 < gmaxwell> (a computationally unbounded attacker can produce identifiers whereever they want in keyspace to pollute the keyspace, but that only lets them blackhole nodes near them on the darknet topology)
17:34 < amiller> i don't think i understand what "on the darknet topology" means
17:34 < amiller> i think i understand cjdns pretty well, better than i understand freenet, but i could have easily just disregarded this approach to sybil defense if i wasn't looking for it
17:35 < amiller> is the darknet topology formed using latency somehow, or by friendnetting?
17:36 < gmaxwell> friendnetting.
17:36 < amiller> ahh.
17:36 < amiller> ok
17:37 < amiller> well what i'm talking about today is not friendnet, it's basically the same setting as bitcoin where you just have a general broadcast diffuser thing and no idea who's around you
17:38 < gmaxwell> Right, I realize that.  _Usually_ trying to threshold on latency is not what we want. but I guess I could see the argument.
17:39 < gmaxwell> Though if you have a system predicated on low latency it likely makes anonymous mining utterly impossible.
17:39 < gmaxwell> (ugh, I hate that 'anonymous' is overloaded, I mean the one that is made impossible by low latency. :P )
17:40 < amiller> it wouldn't necessarily need to be used like that all the way odwn to the individual level, something like towns or states or w/e
17:40 < gmaxwell> amiller: e.g. unless you start saying that this is for nation-states,  communities of interest are often only moderately geographically coorelated. Even at the nationstate level.. should tokyo be able to partition hawaii?
17:41 < amiller> perhaps tokyo could force hawaii to move its transactions up to the larger network (i.e., global bitcoin) where it's a bit more expensive and less responsive
17:42 < amiller> the main motivation for adding more model complexity like this isn't just to have small networks, but to work towards a way of building larger networks out of smaller ones, where the smaller ones also work when possible
17:42 < gmaxwell> Sounds interesting to me!
17:43 < amiller> ok thanks :D
17:43  * amiller keeps working
17:51 < Luke-Jr> amiller: wtf?
17:51 < amiller> :p
17:51 < Luke-Jr> seriously, don't feed the trolls' myths
17:52 < amiller> well, who else should i pretend operates the death star
17:52 < Luke-Jr> maybe some guy who actually does stuff like that
17:56 < sipa> you mean Satoshi?
17:57 < Luke-Jr> sipa: O.o?
17:58 < sipa> this comes close: http://abstrusegoose.com/509
17:59 < gmaxwell> I like the idea of Luke as darth vader.
17:59 < gmaxwell> Mostly because he's the least darthvadery person I know.
17:59 < sipa> Have you ever seen him waring a Vader-suit?
18:00 < gmaxwell> "Luke, I am your certified personal accountant."
18:08 < Luke-Jr> "bitcoin should just limit each human alive to 1% of the network"
18:08  * Luke-Jr facepalms
18:09 < gmaxwell> I'd missed http://abstrusegoose.com/509 !
18:13 < sipa> I do wonder why he'd choose Hitler's birthday to make love to that fish.
19:15 < jgarzik> sipa, 420 means something different in the US, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=420
19:19 < sipa> eh, ok
21:43 < jgarzik> sipa, there are, um, green-related parties on 4/20 all over the US as a result
21:44 < jgarzik> Atlanta, Portland, Seattle and other cities have festivals
21:44 < jgarzik> it's pretty funny
21:45 < gmaxwell> I had no clue that was hitler's birthday, thats pretty fantastic.
21:47 < gmaxwell> would be amusing to show up at the big outdoor weed smoking festival in santa cruz dressed in nazi regalia and pretend to be really confused and cause confusion for all the chemically confused people.
21:53 < jgarzik> heh
--- Log closed Thu Aug 08 00:00:14 2013