--- Log opened Sun Dec 29 00:00:36 2013
00:45 < BlueMatt> is anyone working on the altcoin builder?
00:46 < BlueMatt> otherwise I'm gonna hack one together and at least provide bitcoind/bitcoin-qt (for a neat price)
00:46 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: I think I read that some russian guy is
00:48 < andytoshi> hahaha go for it BlueMatt, it'd be awesome if someone on this channel was behind it
00:48 < andytoshi> we could just quietly slip experiments into other peoples' alts ;)
00:49 < BlueMatt> yea, plus I plan on charging for use of a fork based on anything past 0.8
00:49 < BlueMatt> that way if any alts popup that get to big, we can just step in and shut down their networks with the bloom /0 bug
00:51 < andytoshi> hmm, this sounds like a slippery slope to actually becoming the illuminati
00:51 < nsh> wait, i thought that was the plan?
00:51 < andytoshi> yeah, i guess i could live with that :)
00:51 < BlueMatt> nsh: shhhhh
00:51  * nsh smiles
00:52 < nsh> BlueMatt, what's required for altcoin builder?
00:52 < BlueMatt> me spending a night and learning bootstrap and then y'all advertising it
00:52 < nsh> i've been semirecruited for a somewhat similar venture, so might be able to help
00:54 < BlueMatt> not sure what you're offering here...
00:54 < nsh> neither do i, it's fine
00:54 < BlueMatt> heh, ok
00:55 < nsh> "Summary: Remote p2p crash via bloom filters"  is that the bloom /0 bug?
00:55 < BlueMatt> yup
00:55 < nsh> ah, *reads*
00:55 < BlueMatt> yours truly cant code
00:56 < nsh> ah, it's just a case of iterative failure most of the time
00:56 < gmaxwell> wasn't your fault in coding it, there is one of you and more people than you reviewed it.
00:56 < gmaxwell> crashbugs are the fault of the reviewers.
00:56 < nsh> idd
00:56 < gmaxwell> :P
00:57 < nsh> has there been any exploitation of it?
00:57 < nsh> i don't recall hearing about it until now which is a good sign
00:57 < BlueMatt> you cant really exploit it, just crash the node
00:57 < nsh> that's what i meant, sorry
00:57 < BlueMatt> ideally someone will step up and kill nodes to force upgrades slowly
00:57 < nsh> i'd volunteer, but...
00:57 < nsh> :)
00:57 < BlueMatt> ie kill a few nodes a day until there are no more nodes with the bug running
00:58  * nsh nods
00:59 < nsh> they'll turn over eventually. plenty worse vulns out there...
00:59 < nsh> 28 million open DNS resolvers on the internet or something
01:09 < BlueMatt> well, sure
01:10 < BlueMatt> not my job to fix the internet though, I just need to fix bitcoin
01:16 < nsh> true
02:16 < maaku> i wish there was someone whose job is was to fix the internet
02:16 < BlueMatt> there may be a few of those...
03:43 < gmaxwell> petertodd: I see you changed to SIGHASH_NONE in dust-b-gone, now you need to automatically feed the dust-b-gone data into andy's tool when there is an open cj.
03:43 < gmaxwell> though I expect andy's joining will need to be taught to not strip that signature. :P
03:48 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: ^  PT's dustbegone now generates transactions which spend dust coins (ones with very low value) with the sighash flags set to NONE|ANYONECANPAY  if you supported these being submitted to you, you could have people one-pass give away coins to the join.
12:30 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: cool, i'll definitely check this out
12:31 < andytoshi> how much of OP_CHECKSIG do i need to implement to find the hash byte?
12:46 < andytoshi> ah, i see, none -- the wiki is just worded weirdly
13:31 < midnightmagic> petertodd: Does this mean I'm updating dust-b-gone?
13:32 < andytoshi> midnightmagic: latest commit was dec 19
13:33 < midnightmagic> guess so then.
13:41  * nsh imagines dust-b-done being advertised as a 1950s style household cleaning product with subtle sexual undertones
13:41 < nsh> *gone
13:59 < andytoshi> ok, i have updated coinjoin so that it won't strip signatures in the specific case that sighash is NONE|ANYONECANPAY
13:59 < andytoshi> petertodd: if you want to throw dust in the joiner, you will also have to add an output to the donation address to indicate that it should all go to fees
14:00 < andytoshi> CodeShark: maybe this gives you a way to preserve your multisig information? if you can make your scriptSigs look like an ordinary NONE|ANYONECANPAY sig then the joiner won't wreck them
14:17 < andytoshi> (if the scriptSig starts with a PUSHDATA, coinjoin just jumps to the end of the data and reads that byte as a hashType)
14:35 < midnightmagic> andytoshi: Is there a way I can fire off dust txes into the next coinjoin tx on the command-line?
14:35 < midnightmagic> :-D
14:36 < midnightmagic> I seem to get a lot of dust. It's pretty annoying
14:36 < maaku> midnightmagic: sign it away NONE|ANYONECANPAY
14:37 < maaku> actually, make a transaction paying to the fee address, and sign with NONE|ANYONECANPAY
14:37 < maaku> then submit it as a usual coinjoin transaction
14:37 < midnightmagic> hrm
14:38 < andytoshi> midnightmagic: the POST form on the coinjoin site is dead simple, you can probably use curl
14:38 < andytoshi> it doesn't report errors in a super simple-to-parse way.. so don't make mistakes ;)
14:38 < midnightmagic> ok
14:38 < andytoshi> you can read the current status in text https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/status.php
14:39 < andytoshi> one moment, i'll pastebin the source of that file so you can see all possible outputs
14:40 < BlueMatt> anyone looked into the network fork?
14:40 < andytoshi> http://pastebin.com/nYLHDMfM
14:40 < andytoshi> BlueMatt: i'm reading all the txouts right now, haven't seen any weird ones
14:41 < andytoshi> there are a few massive txs
14:41 < andytoshi> eg 057f800f430b22417bdf829d16e78393249634d5409c36b63f058c1a2b54fcf1
14:41 < andytoshi> is about 64k
14:42 < BlueMatt> which block is this?
14:42 < andytoshi> block 277596 is 0000000000000001947cc7acbbc9a240517f9ba19c16b4f937795c6b58019fb5
14:42 < andytoshi> bc.i and blockexplorer are stuck at 277595
14:42 < BlueMatt> bc.i isnt anymore
14:42 < BlueMatt> yea
14:44 < maaku> ;;cjs
14:44 < gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
14:46 < andytoshi> i've found 2 now which exceed 64k, which makes bash whine at me..idk if 64k is a magic number for anything else
14:46 < andytoshi> make that 3
14:46 < andytoshi> 5
15:10 < justanotheruser> Whats all this I'm hearing about 277596
15:15 < nsh> it's the new magic number. three has retired
15:29 < Emcy> whats interesting about that block
15:33 < andytoshi> Emcy: on #bitcoin-dev they are discussing it, appears to be just a communication problem around an ordinary reorg
15:35 < BlueMatt> Emcy: not even communication, just a reorg
15:41 < midnightmagic> andytoshi: Hey I think your .onion hidden site doesn't work with the /coinjoin/ action. nginx says file not found.
15:42 < andytoshi> oh, thanks
15:42 < andytoshi> fixed
15:43 < Emcy> andytoshi i got it
15:43 < Emcy> big reorg tho
15:44 < Emcy> that guy limiting his blocks to 32kb wtf
15:51 < andytoshi> fyi there is a new paper on bitcoin mining vulnerabilities out: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/868.pdf
15:52 < andytoshi> which we may get swamped by over the next few days
15:52 < andytoshi> it starts by assuming an attacker can communicate with every miner faster than they can communicate with each other
15:53 < andytoshi> the top of page 3 invokes the sunk cost fallacy as some sort of determiner of miner behavior, so i stopped reading there
15:54 < BlueMatt> so...same assumption as many other attacks on mining stuff...
15:59 < Emcy> isnt the biggest predictor of miner behavior the fire and forget factor
16:03 < BlueMatt> in other words we need to further encourage mining pool peering even though it already exists pretty extensively for the largest ones afaiu
16:05 < Emcy> why? it reorged fine
16:05 < BlueMatt> re: the paper, not the reorg
16:05 < Emcy> oh
16:23 < midnightmagic> lol
16:25 < phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, re: super old stale block
16:25 < phantomcircuit> some mining hardware fails to flush when the network finds a new block
16:25 < phantomcircuit> so they can submit shares for minutes and minutes after the pool has updated
16:25 < nsh> sacrifices to the fallen CPU miners
16:26 < nsh> pour out some hashes for your homies
16:26 < phantomcircuit> smarter pools publish the block on the off chance it's accepted
16:34 < midnightmagic> lol
16:38 < BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: does that effect the paper or just random statement of dumb mining hardware?
16:38 < phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i was commenting on the recent fork
16:38 < BlueMatt> ahh
16:38 < BlueMatt> Im not even sure this is the case here
16:39 < phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, just the terrible operator with his terrible connection
16:40 < phantomcircuit> also the stuff about chinese internet beign terrible is true but im sure he can afford a real connection
16:40 < phantomcircuit> it doesn't even have to be that big
16:40 < midnightmagic> andytoshi: Okay, I'm attempting to submit a transaction to the coinjoin interface consisting of 0.00000004 btc, with the sum being completely "donated" to the fee address. It's telling me my inputs are not valid, usually meaning they've already been spent.
16:42 < BlueMatt> he limits his blocks so he can relay with 1 udp packet....
16:42 < BlueMatt> I mean thats just overkill no matter how shitty your connection is...
16:42 < phantomcircuit> that's just sillyness
16:42 < phantomcircuit> im sure he has the bandwidth but his latency is probably terrible
16:43 < phantomcircuit> also i wonder if he remembers to retransmit
16:43 < phantomcircuit> im guessing no
16:44 < BlueMatt> probably not
16:50 < andytoshi> midnightmagic: can you msg me the tx?
16:51 < andytoshi> or just the input ids?
17:12 < midnightmagic> andytoshi: sure
22:18 < phantomcircuit> huh
22:18 < phantomcircuit> sitting here it just hit me why a deflationary spiral is a non sequitur with bitcoin
22:19 < phantomcircuit> risk of collapse makes the issue of people as a whole "hoarding" bitcoins impossible
22:19 < phantomcircuit> ironic
22:30 < gmaxwell> the point I like to make is one that I don't have a succinct expression of yet...
22:31 < gmaxwell> which is that you can only use that as argument against such against any deflationary asset existing since any "deflationary spiral" 'risk' exists if you use it or not.
22:32 < gmaxwell> e.g. who cares if you use dollars as your daily spending money. Gold exists and is 'deflationary' (maybe, ignoring your collapse argument)... so if the argument is true why isn't the economy collapsing due to people rapidly converting every free dollar they have to gold?
22:33 < andytoshi> the claim is that once people have their gold, they stop converting anything to anything..
22:33 < andytoshi> which is arguably even sillier
22:36 < gmaxwell> I think a lot of this ultimately stems from the fact that there are inherent unfairnesses and inefficiencies in the whole concept of durable money.
22:36 < gmaxwell> But the notion that money itself is a purely artificial construct and perhaps not perfect in every way, is so far outside of peoples thinking that they get stuck in weird dissonance.
22:38 < gmaxwell> At least in the US our society has placed money in a position of existing as a kind of independant good— decoupled from the productivity and happiness of people that we just don't really have the right perspective needed to critically question the behavior and role of money in our society.
22:39 < gmaxwell> In perhaps the same way that societies with slavery seemed to have a generally difficult time reasoning about the pratical and ethical implications of it.
22:40 < andytoshi> what is interesting is that if you look at most any society throughout history, they always come up with some sort of currency, and these currencies are so similar that we recognize them today as money
22:40 < andytoshi> perhaps the same is true of slavery
22:41 < andytoshi> it is more than ordinary can't-think-outside-the-box dissonance because this really does seem baked into human thinking
22:42 < andytoshi> the problem of finding a consistent measure of value is universal, and money solves this extremely well ..
22:42 < andytoshi> and then it is represented by some physical good or token, so it naturally assumes a reality of its on
22:42 < andytoshi> own*
22:43 < andytoshi> bitcoin is fascinating because it is not physical and acts in highly non-physical ways, but it still solves the problem that money does
22:44 < gmaxwell> Yea, I don't mean to suggest that we shouldn't have money. Money enables a lot of awesome stuff, but it has a bunch of odd behavior too.
22:45 < gmaxwell> E.g. with durable money you can do things like do one really useful thing, and then never do anything useful again and have society provide for you... in a way which is highly non-linear, e.g. doing N x 1/N useful things is in no way assured to do anywhere near as well for you esp if the GDP is growing.
22:46 < gmaxwell> simply because you can get a bunch of money, and then loan it out to get exponentially more.
22:47 < andytoshi> otoh, when you invest it or lend it out, even though society is supporting you, the wealth they are throwing at you does not act like your wealth
22:48 < andytoshi> so even though you are (unfairly) becoming very wealthy, there is a larger efficiency gain for society
22:48 < andytoshi> in principle, anyway
22:48 < gmaxwell> which is an effect which is _entirely_ decoupled from the whole idea of wanting to be able to do "barter at arms length"... maybe a good effect or a bad effect, but it seems like an inherent effect in money as our societies have envisioned it.
22:48 < andytoshi> this is true, these things are very hard to decouple mentally
22:49 < andytoshi> that, i think, is ordinary human dissonance
22:50 < gmaxwell> yea, I'm not good at it myself, and personally ... perhaps I'm not a great person to question this system because I've benefited from it tremendously, at least if I measure my wellbeing relative to most of the world.
22:51 < andytoshi> mm, myself as well
22:52 < andytoshi> and tbh i think very little about the function of money, despite thinking about bitcoin a lot ... my economic curiosity mostly lies in what happens when machines are able to exchange value
22:52 < andytoshi> suppose we actually had a market with rational actors -- and these actors never needed to sleep or relax
22:53 < andytoshi> the -wizards discussions are fascinating, because maybe they could even be 100% evilly selfish, and even so they could trust each other
22:53 < gmaxwell> yea, well, most of my thinking only really extends to the realization that it's actually more complicated then we take for granted.
22:55 < andytoshi> i think humans avoid a ton of the complexity by relying on biological impulses to trust each other
22:55 < andytoshi> and on the police :)
22:55 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, yea, but also somewhat scarry too if you go too wizards-wank about it.  Imagine now that you have uploaded minds in computers... then everything you're thinking about also applies to "people" too, at least in theory. Which sounds neat, but then you wonder about the social implications of things like ZK-SNARKS meaning that it could actually be physically impossible to tell a convincing lie, no matter how good the ...
22:55 < gmaxwell> ... justification.
22:57 < andytoshi> wow, i have not considered that ... i need to write some scifi about this, try to explore the social implications
22:58 < andytoshi> (not good scifi, or even anything i'd publish .. just something to organize my own thoughts)
23:00  * andytoshi grabs another beer
23:02 < gmaxwell> the nearest I've seen to touching any of these matters is in the latter half of "Rapture of the Nerds" (Doctorow, Stross— both of whom I think are crappy writers, but I enjoy their books) there is a part where the people enter into a bar which is I/O isolated from the rest of the universe, the reason for this is because the bar implements a contracts system where violating the rules is impossible (if you violate the rules the bar ...
23:02 < gmaxwell> ... rewinds state to undo the violation)
23:03 < gmaxwell> most of this stuff hasn't been touched in scifi because the authors just really have no clue it's possible. PCP theorm is still pretty recent and the implications really haven't percolated all that far.
23:05 < andytoshi> i just encountered its philosophy today in 'quantum computing since democritus', i don't have a clear idea of it yet
--- Log closed Mon Dec 30 00:00:39 2013