01:38:36maaku:is there any reason to change the initialization values when performing truncated hashing, as NIST recommends for its
01:38:46maaku:*for its truncated modes?
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04:10:45phantomcircuit:petertodd, it's /2
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15:10:27jtimon_:fund Jamaican bobsled, such pump. fund dogemarket, to the moon http://maaku.github.io/dogemarket.org/
15:21:25_ingsoc:Hahaha. Nice.
17:02:55petertodd:jtimon_: the amoral marketer in me thinks maaku's use of dogecoin to pump freidmarkets is very shewed
17:03:50jtimon_:can't find shewed...
17:04:26petertodd:* petertodd hooked on fonics worked for me
17:04:52jtimon_:we have more stuff in mind "Litemarkets: like gold to colored coin's silver"
17:05:40petertodd:jtimon_: I think you need a cheese analogy, because you can find that kind of thing on the moon
17:06:29jtimon_:apparently people didn't undesrtood what free software means and kept complaining about freicoin's demurrage and foundation when talking freimarkets
17:06:43jtimon_:so maybe people get it this way...
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17:07:11petertodd:jtimon_: lol, though speaking of, I noticed that doge's issuing scheme is bugged and results in 5% inflation forever (notied == saw on reddit)
17:07:30petertodd:jtimon_: hilarious that actually matches almost what how I think crypto-currencies should workd!
17:07:41jtimon_:and if those dogs are funding the jamaican bosleigh team...
17:07:55petertodd:I'll have to buy some
17:08:16jtimon_:maybe the perpetual inflation was on purpose, some other alts have it
17:08:40petertodd:well the github discussion seems to indicate it wasn't, but anyway, happy accident
17:08:50sipa:petertodd: that means the int64 amounts should overflow at some point?
17:08:54petertodd:(pity it'll probably be removed in a hard fork...)
17:09:14petertodd:sipa: what amounts though? there's no "total coins" amount in the consensus code
17:09:47jtimon_:petertodd: I think what sipa means is that you could cause overflows at some point
17:09:57petertodd:sipa: I think the tx code is probably safe because of MAX_MONEY (which the doge team apparently thought was what set the max amount of money)
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17:10:34sipa:petertodd: right, i mean more that MAX_MONEY may at some point in the future become uselessly low
17:10:44petertodd:jtimon_: sure, but if no consensus critical code is affected they're ok, and anyway, checked again and it's not 5% inflation, but a linear coin # increase, so it'll take awhile
17:10:59sipa:boring :)
17:11:10petertodd:sipa: well, saying "inflation" was bad of me, so I think they're ok
17:11:25jtimon_:it's monetary inflation
17:11:35jtimon_:not necessarily price inflation
17:11:37petertodd:jtimon_: yup, just not numerical inflation :P
17:11:38sipa:yeah, it's money inflation not price inflation
17:11:42sipa:not what i meant
17:11:53sipa:just that linear increase and not exponential is boring
17:12:08petertodd:sipa: yeah, well, time to make expocoin...
17:12:14petertodd:sipa: e-coin!
17:12:41sipa:actually, it's O(coin) - the inflation is proportional to the amount in circulation
17:12:42jtimon_:most people believe freicoin and expocoin are equivalent
17:12:54sipa:jtimon_: aren't they (apart from psychology) ?
17:13:08petertodd:sipa: heh, well, why not e^coin! with ! as factorial...
17:13:20jtimon_:people forked our diff filter, but nobody forked our demurrage
17:13:49petertodd:jtimon_: I think it's a marketing problem; I would have called it "a shared coin security fund"
17:14:17jtimon_:sipa: we believe they influence intrest differently ie: price inflation just rises nominal interest, demurrage makes REAL intereset fall
17:15:12sipa:right, but that's just a psychological difference, no?
17:15:14jtimon_:"Hausse-Premium" is usually known as "inflation premium"
17:15:26sipa:the % of coins you own doesn't change
17:15:35petertodd:* petertodd can't believe he just read "support for KYC regulatory compliance" in comic sans
17:15:42jtimon_:sipa think of loans
17:15:50jtimon_:and real capital
17:16:21sipa:jtimon_: define on top of your client a layer that shows every amount as ($VALUE / $TOTAL_IN_CIRCULATION)
17:16:31sipa:jtimon_: expocoin and freicoin do become equivalent then, no?
17:16:49sipa:(honest question, i don't know enough about freicoin)
17:18:35jtimon_:well, not exactly at the low level (don't have refHeights) but yes, I guess economically would be the same if everybody uses the freicoin unit instead of the expocoin one
17:19:11petertodd:sipa, jtimon_: lost coins makes expocoin and freicoin act differently
17:19:38jtimon_:petertodd yes, that's true too
17:20:16sipa:petertodd: how so?
17:20:23jtimon_:freicoin recycles lost coins
17:20:36sipa:how do you detect lost coins?
17:20:54jtimon_:you don't detect them, you destroy all coins and reissue them
17:21:16sipa:i don't understand
17:21:28jtimon_:freicoin is constantly destroying coins, lost wallets or not, and then re-issuing through the miners
17:21:40sipa:i may misunderstand some implementation issues on freicoin
17:21:49jtimon_:we explain it as "demurrage fees go to miners" to simplify
17:21:55petertodd:sipa: demurrage affects you regardless of what other coins are availalble, expocoin just introduces more coins into the economy
17:22:15petertodd:sipa: the result is roughly the same, but the exact amount of economic inflaton can differ in practice
17:22:48petertodd:sipa: never mind that demurrage has other implications, such as how it affects things like colored coins
17:26:46jtimon_:sipa these are probably the more relevant commits https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/4025098c05c351d72c8a0916ec6010e821d288d6
17:56:40gmaxwell:This is the puzzle I thought some people here might enjoy: http://web.mit.edu/puzzle/www/2014/puzzle/puzzle_with_answer_cronin/ (don't click solution unless you want to be spoiled) Yes, it's supposted to say that its solved, the theme of this section is that puzzles were written backwards, where you got a 'solution' first and had to derrive the title.
18:09:12nsh:gmaxwell, is the title supposed to be a question that leads to the answer 'CRONIN'?
18:12:35petertodd:nsh: 'round here we'd ask 'Find N such that H(n)=' and would have been clever to bruteforce the nonce rather than the PoW solution.
18:14:05gmaxwell:nsh: well kinda, actually the title is a single word.
18:16:01nsh:* nsh muses
18:16:48gmaxwell:nsh: make you click the card in the page.
18:18:42nsh:well, cheshire nyan is fun, but i'm still confused :/
18:21:30gmaxwell:You have to go deeper.
18:21:41nsh:oka y:)
18:22:34nsh:yay, loads of hex
19:39:49maaku:sipa: inflation moves slowly through the economy giving preferential benefit to those near its source when prices are sticky
19:40:46maaku:and love the O(coin) name
20:16:09maaku:suggestion to jgarzik: crowd-fund in dogecoins your cubesat project. you can send it on L-50 which is taking 50 units to the moon
20:16:27maaku:I think you can drum up enough support to actually send a dogecoin node to the moon (and put a bitcoin node on there too, of course)
20:19:38nsh:that would probably work
20:19:42nsh:i wanna send something to the moon
20:20:14nsh:(a robot that tracks down and destroys the american flag)
20:20:34nsh:((joke. there's no american flag))
20:22:23nsh:maaku, what is this L-50?
20:22:24maaku:jgarzik: i'm serious : http://www.lunarcubes.com/
20:22:30nsh:ah ty
20:23:14nsh:is there a definite launch planned?
20:23:57maaku:nsh: V-50 is a 50-unit housing module attached to centaur upper stages, which go through Earth-Moon L4/L5 on their way out of cislunar space
20:24:14maaku:L-50 is a project to buy one of these to send cubes to the moon
20:24:30nsh:ah, i see
20:24:36maaku:there's also plans to use them for Mars exploration, but that requires a relay spacecraft
20:25:04BigBitz:Heh, cool quiz, gmaxwell :) or puzzle, whatever. :)
20:25:14nsh:would it be feasible to book passage on a regular comsat launch for that? or would it require a special trajectory?
20:25:28maaku:(once you're at Earth-Moon or Earth-Sun lagrange points, it's basically downhill to anywhere in the inner solar system, with the right orbit)
20:25:43nsh:* nsh nods
20:26:02maaku:nsh: the Centaur stages are what take comsats to GEO, then for satallite safety reasons they use their latent fuel to eject themselves from cislunar space
20:26:22nsh:that's convenient
20:26:37maaku:so every. single. launch. of a GEO bird sends a centaur stage (or equiv) through one of these trajectories
20:27:06nsh:* nsh crosses out all his ambitions and replaces with "write code that ends up orbiting moon"
20:49:49petertodd:* petertodd crosses out all his ambitions and replaces them with "write code that exploits code orbiting the moon"
20:51:58maaku:that you coudl do now...
20:52:49brisque:working on software on the moon would be awful. imagine the cost of getting somebody to go there and power cycle your server because you killed the wrong process.
21:00:12CodeShark:keep someone there at all times just in case
21:03:31CodeShark:the most annoying thing about working on software on the moon would be the latency
21:04:17brisque:probably get better latency to the moon than on a 3G connection, it's not all that far away
21:04:29CodeShark:a quarter of a million miles
21:04:41brisque:little over a second then?
21:05:01CodeShark:in each direction, yes
21:05:37brisque:just use a client with local echo, it'd be just as usable a SSH over GPRS
21:08:11jgarzik:maaku, not implying you were not being serious. just fun :) dogecoin has a lot of cute marketing, like the bobsled thing.
21:10:59CodeShark:SSH over GPRS is usable? hell, anything over GPRS is usable?
21:12:57brisque:I used a phone with a GPRS connection for a few years, it was incredibly painful.
21:19:14CodeShark:many of us did