| 00:30:25 | home_jg: | home_jg is now known as jgarzik |
| 03:57:49 | werebutt: | werebutt has left #bitcoin-wizards |
| 05:30:50 | tacotime_: | tacotime_ is now known as tt_zzz |
| 10:06:32 | nOgAnOo: | HERE IS MY CRYPTSY REFERAL ID IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO HELP A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN. - 70bc3b83eab4372e62132d96cede435c627516a5 |
| 10:07:16 | _ingsoc: | :/ |
| 10:31:49 | grazs: | a what |
| 11:00:35 | TD[away]: | TD[away] is now known as TD |
| 13:18:57 | warren: | http://www.identitymind.com/company/partners/ "There are about 10 Billion devices in the world that are connected to the Internet and BlueCava aims to identify all of them." |
| 13:18:59 | warren: | frightening |
| 13:20:23 | brisque: | wonder what they're using to distinguish devices. surely most embedded linux devices all have the same public fingerprint, there's barely anything to distinguish them. |
| 13:21:21 | warren: | more bitcoin devices than humans in the world |
| 13:22:08 | nsh: | s#bitcoin#tcp/ip# |
| 13:23:32 | TD: | i am skeptical about the 10 billion figure |
| 13:24:10 | TD: | having worked in the field myself i am a lot MORE skeptical about identifying all of them being a remotely realistic goal |
| 13:26:04 | brisque: | their goal seems to be attempting to correlate users between devices. matching one browser fingerprint with another, rather than trying to uniquely identify devices. |
| 13:28:51 | TD: | yes of course |
| 13:28:53 | TD: | it's still rather hard |
| 13:29:05 | TD: | well, assuming you "play the game" normally of course |
| 13:30:27 | brisque: | I doubt any of these companies do. if google is using browser bugs to track Safari devices against their cookie settings, you can be pretty sure these companies are going even dirtier. |
| 13:31:27 | TD: | ah, well you don't know the story of that bug. |
| 13:31:42 | TD: | there is a long explanation of it here: http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000937.html |
| 13:31:54 | TD: | tl;dr that was actually a bug in safari and google got the blame for it. nice, huh |
| 13:32:48 | TD: | by "play the game" i meant, try and do it all in the browser. if i had a really compelling product to sell for credit cards i'd ask the user to download and run a native app |
| 13:33:02 | TD: | you can get a lot more scammers that way, of course |
| 13:34:32 | brisque: | TD: that's interesting, i heard the noise around the time but the followup must not have had quite the journalistic merit. |
| 13:35:37 | TD: | the "story" was revealed by the wall street journal at a time when Murdoch was giving speeches about how Google was destroying the newspaper business and it'd be saved by the iPad |
| 13:36:02 | TD: | and it went downhill from there |
| 13:37:51 | brisque: | that bluecarva.com thing seems reasonably standard. it does the usual, user agent, plugin version, installed fonts, all the normal fingerprinting stuff. attempts to put cookies and lcoalstorage cookies everywhere, and that's about the end of it. |
| 13:38:20 | brisque: | comes with a big scary warning about how the source they're presenting is confidential and secret, but that's about the end of it. |
| 13:39:25 | TD: | yeah that's typical |
| 13:39:30 | TD: | of course carders know about all of that |
| 13:39:53 | brisque: | coinbase uses all of those too, interestingly enough. |
| 13:44:37 | brisque: | looks like bluecarva tries to use clock skew as a fingerprint too, that's one I hadn't thought of before. |
| 13:49:49 | jgarzik: | jgarzik is now known as home_jg |
| 14:16:49 | aksyn: | you can probably fingerprint a browser version based on rendering time of certain DOM elements |
| 14:17:25 | aksyn: | and yeh, shotgun crap into cookies, localstorage, flash cookies etc. to identify users |
| 14:18:28 | aksyn: | market seems busy for a monday night |
| 14:18:45 | aksyn: | on huobi at least |
| 15:16:05 | tt_zzz: | tt_zzz is now known as tacotime_ |
| 16:04:04 | TD_: | TD_ is now known as TD2 |
| 16:43:29 | OneFixt_: | OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt |
| 16:57:54 | tacotime_: | http://www.businessinsider.com/report-ceo-of-major-bitcoin-exchange-arrested-2014-1 |
| 16:57:55 | tacotime_: | whoops |
| 17:00:15 | grazs: | but he looks so honest |
| 17:01:42 | tacotime_: | Popped on those charges for just a mil too, sucks. |
| 17:02:38 | gmaxwell: | Guess the folks who were hoping to get coins back from him, http://bitinstant.info/ are out of luck. |
| 17:14:16 | sipa: | gmaxwell: get coins back? |
| 17:18:18 | gmaxwell: | sipa: right before bitinstant shut down apparently they bought BTC from a number of parties and never paid. see the link. |
| 17:23:08 | sipa: | ewww |
| 17:26:56 | pigeons: | SHREM is also charged with one count of willful failure to file a suspicious activity report, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison. |
| 17:27:10 | sipa: | and the site is gone |
| 17:28:34 | tacotime_: | I'm guessing maybe they dug up the silk road stuff after getting subpoenas/warrants related to fraud. |
| 17:33:01 | phantomcircuit: | tacotime_, yeah or you know they're reading all of the silkroad message system messages |
| 17:33:08 | phantomcircuit: | im thinking that one |
| 17:33:47 | _ingsoc: | Highly unlikely they'd arrest someone high profile without a solid case that'll probably end up in a successful prosecution. |
| 17:34:43 | krl: | having messages in cleartext on a site like that... |
| 17:36:17 | tacotime_: | krl: You really think someone would do that? Just go on illegal marketplace sites on the internet and use cleartext to communicate? :yaranaika face: |
| 17:36:29 | home_jg: | TorMail data was also seized in its entirety |
| 17:36:47 | home_jg: | as part of the Freedom Hosting takedown |
| 17:36:47 | krl: | people will unless you force them not to |
| 17:37:30 | home_jg: | at _ingsoc implied, arrests at the federal level are not usually made unless they are convinced they have a strong case. |
| 17:38:04 | home_jg: | successful prosecution rate is > 90%. They also overcharge, hoping to negotiate down to a guilty plea that sticks |
| 17:39:23 | home_jg: | will make the NY hearing _very_ interesting. It appears that was the intention (just my supposition...) |
| 17:40:44 | sipa: | what hearing? |
| 17:41:00 | tacotime_: | http://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shrem-to-banks-we-want-to-work-with-you/ |
| 17:41:09 | tacotime_: | I guess maybe he should have been working with Swiss banks. |
| 17:41:28 | home_jg: | sipa, https://twitter.com/BenLawsky/status/426431501115211776 etc. |
| 17:41:46 | home_jg: | NYDFS is holding hearings, similar to the US senate hearings. |
| 17:42:01 | home_jg: | Lawsky is the "you should have BitLicenses" guy at NY-DFS |
| 17:42:02 | sipa: | New York... depth first search? |
| 17:42:09 | home_jg: | Dept Financial Services |
| 17:42:19 | home_jg: | NY regulator of money transmitters |
| 17:42:25 | sipa: | got it |
| 17:43:18 | home_jg: | I think these hearings will be much more harsh than the US Senate hearings |
| 17:55:09 | gmaxwell: | home_jg: well the 90% conviction rate is in part because damn near everyone pleds guilty because its so stacked against you. |
| 18:05:55 | maaku: | maaku is now known as Guest19097 |
| 18:10:05 | michagogo|cloud: | Um |
| 18:10:15 | michagogo|cloud: | Did bitinstant market to SR users or something? |
| 18:11:57 | pigeons: | not like the charge would imply |
| 18:23:27 | Guest19097: | Guest19097 is now known as maaku |
| 18:49:29 | TD: | michagogo|cloud: read the criminal complaint |
| 18:49:36 | TD: | michagogo|cloud: the dude is almost certainly going to spend a long time behind bars |
| 18:49:51 | TD: | michagogo|cloud: the evidence just in the document needed to get an arrest warrant seems to create an open/shut case. |
| 18:51:52 | TD: | gmaxwell: that .... and prosecutors try to avoid spending time on weak cases. japan has a 99% conviction rate but not the same culture of insane jail sentences |
| 18:52:04 | TD: | UK has 80% |
| 18:53:02 | TD: | anyway home time |
| 18:53:11 | shesek: | michagogo|cloud, if I understand correctly, he did this via a 3rd party company that was marketing to SR users |
| 18:53:51 | TD: | third party guy |
| 18:53:51 | michagogo|cloud: | TD: I was specifically asking about the "sold bitcoins for drugs" part |
| 18:53:56 | TD: | yes |
| 18:54:09 | michagogo|cloud: | * michagogo|cloud goes to read |
| 18:54:24 | TD: | shrem knew he was selling bitcoins to a drug dealer on SR, said he knew many times, and explicitly helped the guy avoid bitinstant's partner companies AML controls |
| 18:54:36 | _ingsoc: | TD: Plea deal or jail time? |
| 18:54:38 | michagogo|cloud: | TD: ah |
| 18:54:43 | michagogo|cloud: | BTW, shesek, could you tell me if you're able to access tigerdirect.com? |
| 18:54:56 | TD: | the guy's emails write the case for him. the prosecutor probably doesn't even need to turn up |
| 18:54:58 | shesek: | michagogo|cloud, nope. blocking Israeli IPs? |
| 18:54:59 | TD: | _ingsoc: both? |
| 18:55:12 | michagogo|cloud: | shesek: Would appear so |
| 18:55:21 | michagogo|cloud: | Looks like Germany isn't blocked, while Latvia is |
| 18:55:35 | shesek: | perhaps some poor anti-ddos protection? |
| 18:55:42 | michagogo|cloud: | * michagogo|cloud shrugs |
| 18:56:15 | phantomcircuit: | it's internap |
| 18:56:21 | phantomcircuit: | so yeah probably just terrible anti-ddos |
| 18:56:52 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, charlie is going to prison for a very very long time |
| 18:57:11 | michagogo|cloud: | internap? |
| 18:57:19 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, internap.com |
| 18:57:33 | shesek: | TD, oh, right, guy. I thought Faiella was a company |
| 18:57:39 | TD: | nope. that's his last name |
| 18:58:11 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, he's the guy who was all over sr offering to purchase money packs |
| 18:58:24 | phantomcircuit: | iirc he even had a ridiculous little cartoon king |
| 18:58:41 | TD: | he was getting people to deposit into his personal bank account, even |
| 18:59:08 | shesek: | I never used SR, so I'm not really familiar with that/him |
| 18:59:14 | gmaxwell: | I wonder if he's the guy who OTC downrated me when I punted him from OTC for his moneypak moneylaundering. |
| 18:59:19 | shesek: | o_O his personal bank account? is he stupid? |
| 18:59:22 | phantomcircuit: | TD, afaict faiella legitimately did not believe that he was breaking the law |
| 18:59:35 | TD: | shesek: has anyone who has been involved with SR so far *not* been stupid? |
| 18:59:41 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, he has definitely been on -otc before |
| 18:59:56 | TD: | shesek: i mean, Shrem was supposed to be head of regulatory compliance at BitInstant and was busy telling reporters how he'd only hire people he got stoned with |
| 19:00:06 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, neither have i, but i went through and looked at it out of morbid curiosity |
| 19:00:23 | TD: | phantomcircuit: do read the complaint. they address that. he absolutely knew, and wrote to DPR that he was afraid LE would come for him |
| 19:00:24 | shesek: | TD, I guess consumers are pretty safe - there's too many of them to do anything to any of them |
| 19:00:28 | TD: | they all knew. none of these guys have been idiots |
| 19:00:46 | phantomcircuit: | TD, fiella? |
| 19:00:49 | michagogo|cloud: | Hmm |
| 19:00:50 | TD: | phantomcircuit: yes |
| 19:00:50 | phantomcircuit: | or shrem? |
| 19:00:53 | TD: | phantomcircuit: both |
| 19:00:55 | michagogo|cloud: | Count Three, overt act b |
| 19:00:57 | gmaxwell: | phantomcircuit: fiella, near the end. |
| 19:00:59 | phantomcircuit: | well the question is when |
| 19:01:06 | michagogo|cloud: | Anyone care to guess which service that is? :P |
| 19:01:16 | gmaxwell: | Basically fiella talks to DPR and points out how vulnerable he is. |
| 19:01:24 | phantomcircuit: | i warned charlie that operating in the us was illegal at the same time i shutdown intersango usd trading |
| 19:01:38 | phantomcircuit: | he ignored me obviously |
| 19:01:47 | TD: | shesek: who knows? it's not joe random dealer that worries me, it's that shrem was dealing with businesses who (we think) are legitimate and actually try to follow the law, but the laws are so vaguely written that trying and failing can be punished in the same way as deliberately failing |
| 19:02:16 | TD: | so i'm hoping they don't go after mtgox or the cash processor next (i think i know who that was) |
| 19:02:27 | TD: | given that BitInstant died when their cash processor cut them off for AML violations, hopefully that insulates them |
| 19:02:34 | gmaxwell: | Zipzap. |
| 19:02:39 | phantomcircuit: | TD, the cash processor is pretty clearly zipzap |
| 19:02:39 | TD: | yeah |
| 19:02:47 | TD: | i know. for some reason i didn't want to say it |
| 19:02:52 | TD: | it's not named in the complaint |
| 19:02:58 | phantomcircuit: | zipzap is pretty obviously an unlicensed money transmitter |
| 19:03:02 | gmaxwell: | Obviously the exchange in the complaint is mtgox. |
| 19:03:07 | TD: | yes indeed |
| 19:03:28 | phantomcircuit: | i would be fairly surprised if mtgox is implicated in this in anyway |
| 19:03:42 | michagogo|cloud: | Hm, section 10: is that The Foundation? |
| 19:03:43 | phantomcircuit: | despite bitinstant's claims they were never an agent of mtgox |
| 19:03:47 | michagogo|cloud: | Or some other foundation? |
| 19:03:48 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, yes it is |
| 19:03:54 | shesek: | they do need to show intent, I'm not sure how easy that would be... if they did try to follow the law and didn't do anything maliciously, they should be fine |
| 19:03:55 | phantomcircuit: | charlie is a founding member iirc |
| 19:04:04 | gmaxwell: | In any case, its a bit annoying because _legally_ there probably isn't a bright line procedural distinction between what was going on here and what a lot of other things are doing/have done which aren't intentionally trying to facilitate unlawful activity. |
| 19:04:05 | TD: | "vice chair" :( |
| 19:04:13 | shesek: | though... the laws are indeed vaguely written and you never know :-\ |
| 19:04:18 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/board |
| 19:04:37 | TD: | the foundation has sucked at cleaning its website of members that were later found to be involved in bad stuff. the logo of inputs.io is still there! |
| 19:04:48 | michagogo|cloud: | Ew |
| 19:04:53 | phantomcircuit: | TD, is it really? |
| 19:04:54 | TD: | gmaxwell: right, there isn't .... it's part of why banks refuse to deal with bitcoin companies |
| 19:05:06 | michagogo|cloud: | Who's the webmaster? |
| 19:05:16 | gmaxwell: | So while we can all look at this and say "Idiots!" the successful prosecution here may lay the groundwork for causing problems for people who weren't doing anyhting that was so obviously problematic. |
| 19:05:24 | TD: | it was, at least |
| 19:05:30 | _ingsoc: | Lol, Mark. I wonder how badly the US wants him too. |
| 19:05:31 | sipa: | TD: guess i haven't followed up so closely, what is inputs.io? |
| 19:05:35 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, the unlicensed operation of a money transmitter is fairly solidly defined, the failure to file an SAR stuff however largely has to do with whether a reasonable person would have found the activity suspicious |
| 19:05:37 | shesek: | TD, I'm not sure how that works, can he simply be removed from it? |
| 19:05:37 | TD: | yep |
| 19:05:47 | michagogo|cloud: | sipa: webwallet specializing in micropayments |
| 19:05:48 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, (or rather whether a reasonable compliance officer would have known) |
| 19:05:50 | TD: | sipa: a bitbank run by an anonymous dude who vanished with everyones money |
| 19:05:53 | michagogo|cloud: | (off-chain) |
| 19:06:05 | TD: | michagogo|cloud: a new website is being built actually |
| 19:06:06 | sipa: | TD: ah, same old story :) |
| 19:06:11 | midnightmagic: | The knowingly facilitating SR stuff probably is something that will differentiate future *actually* innocent people. |
| 19:06:18 | phantomcircuit: | TD, mybitcoin.com 2.0 |
| 19:06:19 | shesek: | TD, there must be some official procedure for removing board members. I'm not sure if its possible to simply delete him from the page :O |
| 19:06:23 | TD: | indee |
| 19:06:26 | TD: | *indeed |
| 19:06:32 | gmaxwell: | Not just that but shortly before inputs.io existed the guy was on the forum selling accounts and stuff, it stank from a long distince away. |
| 19:06:49 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, there is and it can be done within 48 hours |
| 19:06:53 | midnightmagic: | There is a procedure for removing board members who have engaged in criminal activity and it requires a vote from the remaining directors. |
| 19:07:00 | phantomcircuit: | gavinandresen, migggght want to start that |
| 19:07:16 | midnightmagic: | But he's not convicted yet.. |
| 19:07:32 | jgarzik: | catching up... URL of criminal complaint? |
| 19:07:37 | phantomcircuit: | midnightmagic, iirc board members can be removed by a vote of 2/3rds |
| 19:07:44 | midnightmagic: | http://www.scribd.com/doc/202555785/United-States-vs-Charles-Shrem-and-Robert-M-Faiella#download |
| 19:08:03 | midnightmagic: | phantomcircuit: I think it requires cause doesn't it? |
| 19:08:03 | shesek: | or a tl;dr: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wac1t/ceo_of_bitinstant_arrested_for_conspiracy_to/cf048a1 |
| 19:08:38 | shesek: | shesek has left #bitcoin-wizards |
| 19:08:54 | shesek: | oops |
| 19:09:08 | _ingsoc: | Wtf was he thinking? |
| 19:09:11 | phantomcircuit: | midnightmagic, ah founding members have more rights than normal members |
| 19:09:14 | phantomcircuit: | 5.16(b) |
| 19:09:18 | TD: | michagogo|cloud: though FWIW i get looped in on a lot of foundation stuff, and i have never once seen a reference to Shrem doing anything at all |
| 19:09:23 | midnightmagic: | shesek: The full bylaws (except for possible changes that they've neglected or deliberately refused to release to the github repo) are here: https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo/tree/master/Bylaws |
| 19:09:51 | shesek: | midnightmagic, thanks |
| 19:09:52 | TD: | he may well have been a founding member but he had little impact on the organisation beyond that, i guess |
| 19:10:11 | gmaxwell: | I was surprised to hear that he was in miami, I thought he'd largely dropped off the radar after bitinstant shut down. |
| 19:10:18 | gmaxwell: | esp with people accusing him of theft. |
| 19:10:24 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, yeah he was super busy getting wasted... |
| 19:10:25 | TD: | yeah, i didn't hear anything about him lately either. |
| 19:10:30 | midnightmagic: | lo |
| 19:10:50 | sipa: | gmaxwell: when did it shut down? |
| 19:11:08 | TD: | many months ago |
| 19:11:12 | TD: | when zipzap terminated them |
| 19:11:29 | gmaxwell: | sipa: june 2013ish? |
| 19:11:48 | michagogo|cloud: | phantomcircuit: 3.6(b), you mean? |
| 19:11:52 | TD: | july |
| 19:11:55 | TD: | it's in the complaint |
| 19:11:57 | shesek: | some people are also accusing him of stealing money - http://bitinstant.info/ |
| 19:12:15 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, 3.6(b) defines how a member can be terminated, 5.16(b) defines how a founding member can be terminated |
| 19:12:24 | phantomcircuit: | shrem is a founding member |
| 19:12:32 | TD: | i looked at the SR forums once, a long time ago. it was full of threads complaining about bitinstant's AML policies. i figured charlie had finally wised up. |
| 19:12:33 | TD: | guess not |
| 19:12:39 | michagogo|cloud: | 3.6(b) is what defines founding members' special rights, afaict |
| 19:12:48 | maaku: | phantomcircuit: charges are pretty damning and not defending shrem at all ... but innocent until proven guilty is a pretty important part of due process |
| 19:13:22 | shesek: | so if I understand this correctly, until (and if) he's convicted, and unless he resigns, he remains a foundation members and part of the board |
| 19:13:25 | phantomcircuit: | maaku, sure, but the foundation is not the government, charlie has no right to be assumed innocent by a private party |
| 19:13:34 | maaku: | maybe there's some sort of way his duties as director can be suspended |
| 19:13:35 | phantomcircuit: | especially when he is so clearly guilty as all hell |
| 19:13:59 | phantomcircuit: | shesek, that's correct |
| 19:14:07 | TD: | there's a 2/3rd vote that could also remove him |
| 19:14:09 | sipa: | gmaxwell: and how long has that bitinstant.info thing been going on? |
| 19:14:18 | michagogo|cloud: | Hrm |
| 19:14:27 | shesek: | 3.6b - Except for the Founding Members who shall only be removed for cause (per the requirements detailed in Section 5.16(b)) ... 5.16b: : (i) declared of unsound mind by a final order of court; (ii) convicted of a felony; or (iii) found by a final order or judgment to have breached any duty arising under these Bylaws, |
| 19:14:39 | michagogo|cloud: | I haven't read the whole thing, but it looks like he can be removed as director under 5.16(c) |
| 19:14:40 | shesek: | right |
| 19:14:46 | _ingsoc: | sipa: First time I heard of it. :/ |
| 19:14:52 | sipa: | _ingsoc: same |
| 19:14:55 | michagogo|cloud: | All that requires cause is removal of his membership entirely |
| 19:15:00 | phantomcircuit: | TD, you're right 5.16(c) |
| 19:15:06 | shesek: | michagogo|cloud, not as a founding member, it seems |
| 19:15:16 | phantomcircuit: | TD, except looking at the sitting members of the board you're not going to get that |
| 19:15:26 | maaku: | sipa: since about the time bitinstant shut down, I forget when that was |
| 19:15:32 | michagogo|cloud: | shesek: From those two sections, I think it's only his membership that's protected as a founding member |
| 19:15:37 | michagogo|cloud: | Not his directorship |
| 19:15:58 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, there isn't a way to remove him as a director without stripping his membership afaict |
| 19:16:05 | michagogo|cloud: | Isn't there? |
| 19:16:08 | TD: | sipa: that site is itself kind of dodgy looking. |
| 19:16:15 | sipa: | TD: no doubt about that |
| 19:16:17 | michagogo|cloud: | What about 5.16(c)? |
| 19:16:30 | sipa: | i just never knew there was any problem with bitinstant or people complaining about it :) |
| 19:16:41 | sipa: | but i clearly missed some things :) |
| 19:16:46 | michagogo|cloud: | Or is there something saying that removing a director necessarily removes their membership? |
| 19:16:50 | TD: | i knew they had an issue supplying people during the april spike and that triggered a class action lawsuit. this sounds different |
| 19:17:05 | shesek: | I bumped into that .info site for the first time today, too |
| 19:17:21 | shesek: | I have no idea who's behind that and if they have anything to back that up, was just pointing out he's accused by some people |
| 19:18:46 | phantomcircuit: | TD, they have bigger problems than that |
| 19:18:58 | TD: | clearly! |
| 19:19:07 | phantomcircuit: | TD, well... |
| 19:19:18 | phantomcircuit: | i believe bitinstant actually lost a good amount of their records |
| 19:19:29 | phantomcircuit: | as in they failed to deliver because they didn't know who purchased what |
| 19:19:29 | michagogo|cloud: | It would seem to me, from sections 3.6 and 5.16, that while his membership can't be terminated without cause, he can be removed as a director |
| 19:19:44 | TD: | at this point i'd believe anything about them |
| 19:19:51 | michagogo|cloud: | (unless there's a part saying that removing a director terminates their membership...) |
| 19:19:52 | phantomcircuit: | michagogo|cloud, except getting 2/3rds of the board to agree isn't something i expect to happen |
| 19:19:57 | michagogo|cloud: | Ah. |
| 19:20:03 | jgarzik: | "my night out with bitcoin millionaire and proud stoner Charlie Shrem" http://www.vocativ.com/12-2013/night-bitcoin-millionaire-proud-stoner-charlie-shrem/ |
| 19:20:06 | midnightmagic: | michagogo|cloud: Only if he's convicted. |
| 19:20:09 | jgarzik: | Profile pieces like that can't help. |
| 19:20:12 | michagogo|cloud: | midnightmagic: no |
| 19:20:23 | michagogo|cloud: | midnightmagic: If he were convicted, his membership could be terminated |
| 19:20:25 | midnightmagic: | Ah (c) |
| 19:20:30 | michagogo|cloud: | But without a co-yes |
| 19:20:46 | TD: | and banned in russia too? crappy day for bitcoin indeed |
| 19:21:02 | midnightmagic: | Simple majority required for cause. 2/3 for without cause. |
| 19:21:06 | phantomcircuit: | russia is bipolar about regulation |
| 19:21:12 | phantomcircuit: | tomorrow they'll change their mind entirely |
| 19:21:34 | TD: | seems like it's the usual thing where different parts of government can't agree |
| 19:21:39 | phantomcircuit: | midnightmagic, you'll notice a felony conviction doesn't automatically eject them |
| 19:21:48 | phantomcircuit: | this is because roger ver is a felon |
| 19:22:25 | TD: | i would assume it'd be easy to distinguish between "convicted whilst being a member" and "convicted before being a member" |
| 19:22:58 | TD: | anyway. home time. |
| 19:23:08 | TD: | TD is now known as TD[away] |
| 19:26:24 | midnightmagic: | lol |
| 19:26:31 | michagogo|cloud: | * michagogo|cloud cringes at the away nick |
| 19:26:56 | midnightmagic: | phantomcircuit: Yeah I remember we had that conversation before and thinking it was odd but I suppose not unexpected. |
| 19:27:09 | maaku: | :sigh: is it really so hard to run an honest bitcoin business? |
| 19:27:49 | maaku: | /honest/law-abiding/ |
| 19:28:14 | gmaxwell: | it's probably very hard or nearly impossible to be pedantically law abiding for many classes of business. |
| 19:28:27 | midnightmagic: | maaku: The attraction is very very strong to psychopaths and sociopaths. It's not hard. It's just easier to someone who literally can't anticipate or is completely unaffected by, consequences for actions. |
| 19:28:42 | midnightmagic: | .. to choose to conduct themselves unethically. |
| 19:28:47 | gmaxwell: | So you have this cooling effect where people who are both smart enough and interested enough in being law abiding run for the hills. What remains is overly dense with people who are stupid or sleezy. |
| 19:29:06 | midnightmagic: | and what gmaxwell said |
| 19:29:44 | midnightmagic: | maaku: The cool part is honest people are pretty good at recognising other honest people, and especially non-psychopaths. |
| 19:30:10 | midnightmagic: | s/honest/honest\/smart/ |
| 19:30:11 | midnightmagic: | :) |
| 19:30:29 | gmaxwell: | Back in early 2011 I got pulled into technically consult with some people looking at running an exchange in the US and basically they concluded that the regulatory uncertanty was so great— esp with the possiblity of criminal charges even if you thought you were doing everything right— that no amount of potential upside would make it make sense. |
| 19:30:48 | jgarzik: | yep |
| 19:30:57 | jgarzik: | I concluded same, independently ;p |
| 19:31:12 | midnightmagic: | * midnightmagic is glad to live in Canada, not for the first time |
| 19:31:16 | jgarzik: | * jgarzik wanted to do an exchange in late 2010, but research proved 'hell no' |
| 19:32:23 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, the principle issue is that it's difficult to operate a legitimate business if your competition are not compliant |
| 19:32:37 | phantomcircuit: | their costs are temporarily below yours |
| 19:32:54 | _ingsoc: | jgarzik: Smart man. |
| 19:33:13 | jgarzik: | phantomcircuit, indeed |
| 19:33:18 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, operating an exchange in the us isn't impossible, just wildly expensive |
| 19:33:22 | sipa: | this is not really a wizards discussion, though... |
| 19:33:53 | midnightmagic: | sometimes wizards non-technical analyses or research is a quick way to disseminate myth-free facts. |
| 19:34:29 | midnightmagic: | just.. wanted to say I appreciate the links and quick refreshers on bitinstant history. |
| 19:35:57 | jgarzik: | sipa, agreed, though I think it's OK on rare days, when it's not drowning out other discussion |
| 19:36:15 | jgarzik: | days like when bitcoin is almost-banned in Russia and Shrem is arrested, for instance ;p |
| 19:36:31 | sipa: | well, i'm not innocent in keeping the discussion alive either |
| 19:36:46 | sipa: | but i like the rule of keeping this channel about non-actual-today-bitcoin stuff |
| 19:37:31 | gmaxwell: | sadly I don't think I can extract any real wizards discussion from this. |
| 19:39:40 | optimator: | sobering read - http://www.scribd.com/doc/202555785/United-States-vs-Charles-Shrem-and-Robert-M-Faiella |
| 19:41:07 | midnightmagic: | * midnightmagic 's optimism gets strangled in its crib |
| 19:41:14 | jgarzik: | sipa, part of the "problem" is that the conversation is really people-centered, not topic-centered. #bitcoin-dev-chatter-but-without-the-assholes. |
| 19:41:32 | michagogo|cloud: | optimator: Is that document identical to http://www.scribd.com/doc/202572639/Faiella-Robert-M-and-Charlie-Shrem-Complaint? |
| 19:41:34 | jgarzik: | thus is appears whereever we are ;p |
| 19:41:49 | michagogo|cloud: | (appears to be) |
| 19:43:07 | optimator: | michagogo|cloud - i think so, it's just the link i had |
| 20:38:11 | adam3us1: | ooh policy-wizards :) shrem = crazy guy, doing seemingly self-sabotaging actions if the accusations are correct. |
| 20:38:16 | wyager: | wyager has left #bitcoin-wizards |
| 20:46:47 | petertodd: | adam3us1: overhearing him talking with a group while prepping my talk in the speakers room at the san jose conference convinced me the dude was a bit unbalanced to say the least |
| 20:47:00 | petertodd: | bbl |
| 21:36:43 | jtimon: | has anyone looked into twister? |
| 21:37:20 | jtimon: | seems interesting http://twister.net.co/ |
| 21:41:34 | home_jg: | home_jg is now known as jgarzik |
| 21:52:02 | azariah4: | "The twister incentive is: whoever finds the hash collision to validate a new block of transactions will be awarded with the right to send a promoted message. Promoted messages have a certain probability of being displayed by twister client." |
| 21:52:06 | azariah4: | hehe :D |
| 21:52:22 | azariah4: | at first I laughed, but thinking of it, it's not too bad for a microblogging platform |
| 21:52:37 | azariah4: | some company could throw hash power at it to push some ads |
| 21:52:43 | michagogo|cloud: | ... |
| 21:52:47 | sipa: | it's trivial to modify your client to just ignore such promoted messages, though... |
| 21:52:52 | michagogo|cloud: | except that you can just not display th- |
| 21:52:56 | michagogo|cloud: | what sipa said |
| 21:55:22 | azariah4: | well, adblock+ haven't killed the website ad industry |
| 21:56:15 | jtimon: | why didn't they just used namecoin for the user registration? |
| 21:57:21 | sipa: | reinventing the wheel is more fun, especially when the wheel can be made to look like a hammer |
| 22:14:55 | adam3us1: | azariah4: is twister an alt as well as a p2p microblog? |
| 22:46:24 | andytoshi: | john baez has a neat article about information complexity and bitcoin scarcity: https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/the-rarest-things-in-the-universe/ |
| 22:47:14 | andytoshi: | i mean, bitcoin rarity. scarcity is an econ term that i don't mean to use |
| 22:52:48 | andytoshi: | he suggests a POW with a trapdoor function so that the key possessor (i.e. the government) can print coins. then you get the monetary control of fiat -and- the unforgeability of bitcoin :} |
| 22:53:37 | gmaxwell: | andytoshi: you don't need to use a pow for that, if you want to give someone the power to inflate the currency you can just let them (via a key) spend coins that don't exist just directly in the system. |
| 22:54:03 | gmaxwell: | POW = minting is a weird notion; in bitcoin pow = consensus, minting is just permitted as a rule in the blocks. :) |
| 22:56:36 | andytoshi: | yeah, i get that. baez is very unfamiliar with bitcoin and (i think) he thinks that the small hashes are the actual "coins". |
| 22:56:57 | andytoshi: | though, it is neat to see a complete outsider perspective from somebody as smart as him |
| 22:57:51 | gmaxwell: | yea thats not actually an uncommon belief. |
| 22:58:01 | gmaxwell: | I dunno where it comes from though. |
| 23:06:35 | midnightmagic: | password cracking analogies probably. |
| 23:25:49 | CampyCoin: | Any interest in domains? |
| 23:26:42 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, ^ |
| 23:28:11 | CampyCoin: | I'm confused here, let me know if I've done something wrong |
| 23:44:08 | CampyCoin: | anybody want some domains? |
| 23:44:37 | nsh: | that's off-topic here, CampyCoin |
| 23:49:07 | gmaxwell: | gmaxwell has kicked CampyCoin from #bitcoin-wizards |