00:29:23Luke-Jr:gmaxwell: guess we're not going after all :<
00:29:38gmaxwell:good since I have nowhere to put you all. :P
00:32:43sipa:there was lots of space when i was there!
00:32:48sipa:oh, that was on a holiday...
00:35:46gmaxwell:Mozilla office is in the process of moving (wrote mining at first…) right now.
00:38:15nsh_:nsh_ is now known as nsh
00:40:42sipa:gmaxwell: what is your primary source of income? mozilla or mining?
00:42:45phantomcircuit:sipa, i would venture 50/50
00:42:59sipa:(it being mining would explain your almost-typo)
00:42:59gmaxwell:I'm not sure if mining is really a source of income anymore just because its returning coins I spent on hardware now.
00:43:22phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, you know whats fun
00:43:54phantomcircuit:graphing return(days, daily growth rate)
00:44:35phantomcircuit:and then looking at the negative second derivative since knc
00:44:56tacotime_:it's less fun when you're a hashfast customer
00:45:18sipa:* sipa 's last mining hardware purchase was BFL
00:45:26sipa:i've learnt since then :)
00:45:42kinlo:I bought an avalon
00:45:51phantomcircuit:tacotime_, interestingly the hashfast equipment actually looks fairly well designed
00:45:55kinlo:good way to throw away monniez
00:46:02tacotime_:i should have really known since i'd spent a lot of time chewing bfl out on the forum, but pulled the trigger when hashfast put up a sale.
00:46:05phantomcircuit:i mean except from using consumer grade ATX psus and the airflow being weird
00:46:07gmaxwell:kinlo: not if you got batch 1 avalons...
00:46:18kinlo:gmaxwell: batch 3, severly delayed
00:46:18tacotime_:phantomcircuit, it mostly works well.
00:46:27kinlo:and well overpaid
00:46:39phantomcircuit:tacotime_, i love how the exhaust is run over the boards before it exits the case
00:46:49kinlo:my roi isn't even 50% of the purchase price, not even including power costs
00:47:24tacotime_:phantomcircuit, the VRMs run pretty hot too, I cabled tied fans onto the front of the boards :P
00:47:29kinlo:so this weekend I'm going to go full throttle on the new shares calculator
00:47:30tacotime_:*cable tied
00:47:35kinlo:eh, wrong channel
00:47:46tacotime_:I really just wish bitcointalk would ban both bfl and hashfast
00:48:15gmaxwell:yea. I think the only profitable devices are Avalon B1 and Bitmain S1s maybe a smattering of bitfury that got good deals and timing.. and I've had reports from someone who got some of the very first KNC units that inist they mined back their coins, but it doesn't look like that for most peoplle.
00:48:34gmaxwell:tacotime_: banning people doesn't really help though. I don't think they're gaining any customers there.
00:48:57phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, the very very first batch of knc units had a positive return assuming that you received a fully functional unit
00:49:00tacotime_:My October bitfury almost roi'd
00:49:10phantomcircuit:in reality the average for kncs first batch was about 250 Gh/s
00:49:27phantomcircuit:(220 if you include completely dead boards)
00:49:45tacotime_:Now all my asics are out to pasture on the peercoin network *tear*
00:49:47gmaxwell:I believe the two antminers I got (in dec and jan) have paid for themselves, maybe not including power costs yet.
00:50:03phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, the s1 or the usb thingies
00:50:24gmaxwell:I have two S1s and a prototype half-S1 that bitmain gave to me for testing.
00:51:36gmaxwell:My CT box is never going to mine back its coins, even with the extra unit they're supposted to send me .. in March.. uh what month is it?
00:51:45phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, do you have them setup with ducting?
00:52:08phantomcircuit:iirc the bitmain things get ridiculous hot if you dont try to control the airflow
00:52:46gmaxwell:they're not that hot and I only have the 2.5 of them. they're just sitting on a shelf in a rack. also, it's cool here.. they actually run at medium fan speed. most of the time.
00:53:16gmaxwell:though have you seen their schemetics? they're running their voltage regulators at like 400% rated current... seem to be holding up okay though.
00:53:39gmaxwell:I think they were originally designed as 100GH/s devices and serverely over-performed.
00:54:34tacotime_:gmaxwell, at the texas conference they said that their "next gen" of S1s is just the same thing with every chip undervolted to hit <1 W/GH/s
00:54:51tacotime_:So maybe you're right and those are the original specifications
00:55:00phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, yeah the chips on those have weird behaviour
00:55:42phantomcircuit:they're not super sensitive to the hilarious amount of rf noise coming from the boards though
00:55:44phantomcircuit:which is neat
00:56:14phantomcircuit:apparently that's the lower bound on the hashfast equpiment
00:56:28phantomcircuit:below some clockrate the rf noise causes weirdness
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01:00:50gmaxwell:so far the antminer stuff has been the best bitcoin hardware I've used.
01:01:04gmaxwell:but there is a lot of room to improve still.
01:01:10tacotime_:my bitfury stuff has been rock solid
01:02:32phantomcircuit:tacotime_, the chips are suspiciously identical
01:02:52phantomcircuit:bitfury has like 20-30 board designs too
01:03:03phantomcircuit:they could actually be the exact same thing with different names
01:03:40tacotime_:has anyone delidded and stripped them?
01:04:03gmaxwell:they have a different on the wire protocol.
01:04:09gmaxwell:so they're not the same chip.
01:04:21gmaxwell:though they are pretty similar in their overall performance.
01:05:13phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, isn't there a microcontroller on the antminer boards?
01:05:26tacotime_:unlike my hashfast miners my bitfury has trimpots to adjust voltage too, so i'll probably be running them longer. :P
01:05:27phantomcircuit:there isn't one on some of the bitfury boards
01:05:50Luke-Jr:tacotime_: software voltage control > trimpots
01:05:57phantomcircuit:was about to say
01:06:07tacotime_:Luke-Jr, ideally, but hashfast has neither so far
01:06:16phantomcircuit:tacotime_, they do it's just not exposed yet
01:06:22tacotime_:oh, thank god
01:06:24phantomcircuit:(or so i was told by a hf engineer)
01:06:34phantomcircuit:although maybe that's only for their v2 board design
01:06:48phantomcircuit:it looks like they completely redid the board to use easier to source components
01:06:56tacotime_:Well, I'll probably voltmod these soon anyway if I can figure out how to
01:07:30Luke-Jr:phantomcircuit: basically, yes
01:07:41tacotime_:phantomcircuit, electric fires are part of it, man.
01:09:23tacotime_:mostly I just want to be able to crank the vcores down
01:09:25gmaxwell:phantomcircuit: I don't think they do, but I haven't really looked, would be funny if they were pirated bitfury masks.
01:09:46phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, im pretty sure they're bitfury chips
01:09:58phantomcircuit:those guys have all kinds of crazy reseller things
01:10:11tacotime_:yeah bitfury was selling reels like crazy
01:10:20phantomcircuit:hell they might have made a chip specifically for antminer that was slightly different to disguise it
01:10:47tacotime_:55 nm with that performance is pretty impressive as well
01:11:09phantomcircuit:tacotime_, iirc he basically hand drew the entire mask
01:11:26tacotime_:yeah, it's a work of art
01:14:10phantomcircuit:tacotime_, the power distribution network is hilarious
01:16:36tacotime_:but it works ;) the m board voltage distributions between h cards is really wacky too if i'm remember correctly
01:45:22tacotime_:http://www.blackcoin.co/ this should be amusing. looks like a peercoin fork but with pow mining turned off after block 10,000.
01:54:36super3:tacotime_, isn't mintcoin doing the same thing?
01:54:43tacotime_:I hope not
01:55:12tacotime_:iirc the stake burn through vulnerability described here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131901.0
01:55:20tacotime_:has a fix that requires pow
01:55:56tacotime_:without pow
01:57:09tacotime_:should be pretty amusing when they switch to pure pos i guess, heh.
01:59:42antephialtic:could SNARKs be used to make a coin with a "useful" PoW? e.g. Miner does some protein folding computation, then publishes a SNARK for the computation that is then verified by other miners?
02:01:39sipa:i guess, but it would be a horribly inefficient protein folding :)
02:17:40gmaxwell:antephialtic: maybe but thats not clear.
02:17:53gmaxwell:antephialtic: it may make the verification fast, but it doesn't prove there is no shortcutting.
02:18:21gmaxwell:(though perhaps constructing a shortcut is hard in practice)
02:18:45gmaxwell:and the enormous (e.g. 10,000x) slowdown in computation probably makes it uninteresting.
02:19:19gmaxwell:tacotime_: turned off? so does it have the "POS simulate a history were you found all the blocks" problem?
02:19:56tacotime_:gmaxwell: i'm guessing, it's a straight fork of novacoin. checking the github now
02:22:00tacotime_:bool ComputeNextStakeModifier(const CBlockIndex* pindexPrev, uint64& nStakeModifier, bool& fGeneratedStakeModifier){ ... }
02:22:02tacotime_:yuh huh
02:22:56gmaxwell:prev hm. sounds fun.
02:25:20tacotime_:>bitcointalk "http://coinmarketcap.com/ Wonderful bug makes BC more exposures !!!"
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16:00:26gmaxwell:I'm very exicted about the ECDSA 2of2.
16:02:09tacotime_:What advantage does that have over 2of2 multisig?
16:02:49shesek:gmaxwell, ECDSA 2of2?
16:02:58tacotime_:I assume this
16:03:40gmaxwell:tacotime_: transactions which are indistinguishable from ordinary payments, which increases privacy. They're also smaller and faster to verify.
16:04:04gmaxwell:(because they're indistinguishable from ordinary payments)
16:04:15tacotime_:did you lock the kimono gravity well thread? haha
16:04:26gmaxwell:tacotime_: I did.
16:04:30tacotime_:ah, okay, the latter i figured but not the former.
16:04:38tacotime_:yeah it was kind of silly
16:05:27tacotime_:it took me forever to figure out what the heck kgw was doing in the first place because the documentation made absolutely no sense
16:05:35tacotime_:but then looking at the code it was like oh
16:06:38gmaxwell:yea. it's trivial, and they've gooped it up with sciency sounding crap.
16:21:36TD:gmaxwell: is it really so new? i thought this paper did n-of-m ecdsa for a long time already: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=
16:24:50Emcy:"Even in the event that an attacker gains more than 50% of the network's computational power, only transactions sent by the attacker could be reversed or double-spent. The network would not be destroyed."
16:24:59Emcy:is that seriously a purchased advert?
16:25:48jtimon:mhmm I think I heard somewhere that some people were trying to do "an equivalent of multisig without changing anything on bitcoin" concurrently to the work on multisig a while ago
16:26:12artifexd:artifexd is now known as artifexd_afk
16:26:36jtimon:not sure if it's the same thing but sounds like it, it was in one episode of "the bitcoin show" (safebit maybe?)
16:27:32jtimon:trying to remember...maybe stefan thomas, what was his 2-men company in 2011 ?
16:30:23Emcy:so that ecdsa thing is better than normal multisig because the anon set is all of bitcoin instead?
16:31:51jtimon:I think it was in this chapter but, sorry I won't watch it again to confirm http://onlyonetv.com/2011/11/the-bitcoin-show-053-stefan-thomas-and-eli-sklar-introduce-safeb-it/
16:41:50TD:Emcy: also smaller outputs so lower fees and smaller utxo set
16:42:59gmaxwell:TD: Hm! I wasn't aware of that. That would be fantastic.
16:43:22TD:i encountered it a long time ago (>1 year) but the maths was way over my head and there doesn't seem to be any open source implementation
16:43:49Emcy:has this 2 of 2 mothod been possible since the beginning? Just no one saw it before?
16:43:59TD:it's certainly more complex than the 2-of-2 protocol described in the doc (assuming it works). the latter looks like something even i could implement quite quickly :) though i am uncertain as to some of the assumptions it makes, like you can't reverse a modular inverse
16:59:54maaku:someone have a copy of that n-of-m DSA paper?
17:00:08maaku:citeseer has blocked this house for downloading too many papers...
17:00:41zooko:Ha. Really?
17:01:09TD:maaku: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4t9VJLm_PWheUtlck1YMGVJWEk/edit?usp=sharing
17:01:40TD:it apparently dates from 2003
17:02:28TD:maaku: sorry, try now
17:02:43maaku:got it
17:04:36zooko:maaku: https://zooko.com/uri/URI%3ADIR2-MDMF-RO%3Afvmtmqxjwrid7di5lrt6es3sky%3A45iu4yzprgna3eod3zt46jgk2yq5vc4ltlxaa57ifpyzhft3fd7a/Latest/sec/Ibrahim-2003-%E2%80%9CA%20robust%20threshold%20elliptic%20curve%20digital%20signature%20providing%20a%20new%20verifiable%20secret%20sharing%20scheme%E2%80%9D.pdf
17:04:39zooko:Oh, you've got it.
17:12:50Emcy:is the p2sh m of n stuff still worth anything now then
17:12:58Emcy:such a big fuss about it 2 years ago
17:14:07maaku:as far as I can tell this N-of-M stuff requires interactive secret sharing, yes?
17:15:17maaku:Emcy: so no, they are not equivalent. with standard script multisig you can pay to any boolean combination of pubkeys without prior setup
17:15:27maaku:(there's two differences in that sentence)
17:32:51gmaxwell:maaku: yes, thats also the case for n-of-m schnorr.
17:33:27gmaxwell:Emcy: P2SH is also a lot more than just n-of-m. It allows compact specification of arbritary scripts.
17:49:41justusranvier:maaku: How specialized is the utxo set commitment data structure? Could it work for other projects with similar needs to Bitcoin?
18:02:56maaku:justusranvier: there's nothing specific to bitcoin
18:03:37maaku:it's a generic key/value index
18:03:52maaku:the keys and values are bitcoin-specific, but only in the way its being used
18:04:29maaku:it's documented here : https://github.com/maaku/bips/blob/master/drafts/auth-trie.mediawiki
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21:46:50jgarzik:hum, getting a miner from a new company gratis (well, in exchange for an honest review)
21:47:14jgarzik:* jgarzik ponders the level of suspicion and DD that should be generated...
21:52:21gmaxwell:jgarzik: I have a seperate lan for that stuff.
21:52:55gmaxwell:had the same question about the antminer s1 prottype I was sent. "Hm.. mips host, from china, to plug into my network"
22:09:57Ademan:it'd be a great attack vector, and "respected community members" probably have a fair amount of BTC
22:11:28Ademan:"[ANN] New USB Miner, generates no heat, requires no configuration. Don't be alarmed that it looks like a regular USB thumb drive. Be sure to roll back windows updates prior to use."
22:23:31sipa:Ademan: is that a quote?
22:24:35tacotime_:I think it's from josh@bfl
22:25:19sipa:does it also cure cancer?
22:42:22adam3us:anyone have a contact for someone at bitstamp?
22:45:24nsh_:i barely have contact with reality
22:49:06Ademan:sipa: naw, bad joke, sorry
22:49:28Ademan:probably unintentionally based on a true story though
23:25:29ssdt:howdy! has anyone heard of such a thing as merging two blockchains? any ideas as to whether it even possible?
23:31:48kanzure:you could pre-mine according to the previous distributions but why would you want to?