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14:04:13jaekwon:maidsafe, as far as i know, might partially solve the byzantine generals problem. but it doesn't seem like it solves what i call the venetian bankers problem, with game theoretically optimal actors.
14:05:15jaekwon:e.g. i think maidsafe would break down as soon as somebody comes up with a fork of the software that looked to cheat the system by collaborating.
14:08:25nsh:does maidsafe have a white paper or anything?
14:09:18jaekwon:there's one paper on the improved DHT
14:09:27jaekwon:and a wiki on github for the rest.
14:09:49nsh:so their product is... hope?
14:10:15maaku:nsh: hope and millions of dollars!
14:10:36jaekwon:i just don't think we (the cryptocurrency community as a whole) really understand what problem it is that we're solving.
14:10:53jaekwon:everybody talks about the byzantine generals problem
14:11:12jaekwon:and maidsafe might solve that as well as a bunch of other shitty coins.
14:11:32jaekwon:but they probably actually rely on hope, yeah.
14:12:21jaekwon:hope that everybody runs the "official" software or protocol and not deviate from it.
14:13:57jaekwon:bitcoin mostly solves the problem even in the face of everybody trying to cheat or collaborate, because the given protocol is an equilibrium.
14:14:08jaekwon:anyways, maidsafe. crazy.
14:20:06helo:to me it just sounds like utopic dreaming
14:24:16jcorgan:but it's Bitcoin 2.0
14:24:20jcorgan:and webscale
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17:13:22andytoshi:jaekwon: until maidsafe publishes anything at all which would validate their claims, nobody here will believe that they can do anything
17:13:42andytoshi:and the fact that they haven't published anything after all this time is good indication that they're just hot air
17:21:22Luke-Jr:andytoshi: in Texas, they were making impossible claims and couldn't answer my questioning of those claims
17:21:40Luke-Jr:as if they didn't understand why the claims were impossible
17:22:12Apocalyptic:is that surprising to you Luke ?
17:22:22Apocalyptic:good then
17:22:29Luke-Jr:makes me feel I wasted 30 mins listening to em tho :P
17:42:43gmaxwell:That was generally the vibe I'd recieved from their published claims. They were claiming things which I believe to be likely impossible, of course, it's not at all unlikely that I'm incorrect but they also seemed to have no sense that these things were difficult to achieve much less hard to believe. "We did something you thought impossible" is pretty likely, "We did something you thought impossible and didn't even think it was a ...
17:42:49gmaxwell:... challenge" is less so... and they did this several times.
17:55:25bitcoinh_:Luke-Jr - who is THEY?
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17:55:59bitcoinh_:maidsafe at the texas bitcoin conference?
17:59:56bitcoinh_:/msg Luke-Jr
18:03:24Apocalyptic:^ you're doing it wrong
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21:46:54thufir:question for anyone familiar with the probabilistic payment concept and only? implementation that is in python: other than the psychological issues people mention, is it known to be a technically safe/working solution? such that I should spend my effort to fix psychological issue?
21:49:14arubi:thufir, please explain what you mean by this. I'm very curious
21:50:41thufir:the probabilistic payment itself? or my ideas how to enable it?
21:51:24arubi:I don't really understand what you mean by probabilistic payment
21:51:50arubi:can you give an example?
21:52:18thufir:oh, and correction to my original statement: nodejs implementation, not python
21:52:38arubi:that's secondary to my question
21:52:39thufir:yes, i did not come up with it, but like the idea, it is defined here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Nanopayments
21:54:18thufir:I suppose a nice summary is you are sending payments via a transaction that is a lottery ticket. key enabling feature is that only the recipient can know if it is a winning one or not.
21:54:39thufir:only winning transaction (ticket) his blockchain
21:55:17thufir:so the psychological issue is: i pay you a micropayment, but you get nothing because it was a loosing ticket. however, the chance was provably fair, so i did 'pay' you.
21:55:45arubi:that's genious!
21:55:57arubi:genius *
21:56:13arubi:I've never heard of nanopayments
21:56:31thufir:I thought so too! (again, not my idea, just my favorite one :)
21:56:59arubi:I can see why!
21:57:26arubi:so what's the psychological issue?
21:57:52thufir:i tried to word it above. ill try again...
21:58:07nsh:* nsh blinks
21:59:30arubi:* arubi blinks regularly
22:00:09thufir:say I wanted to pay you 0.00009 BTC, with ticket probability of 1/1024, so each a chance to win 0.1 BTC, you would need to get paid 1024 times on average before you actually receive the BTC..
22:00:57arubi:so 0.00009 + 1024 = 0.1 BTC? (or a bit less)
22:01:10thufir:however, you must accept each ticket as a valid payment of 0.00009 regardless, and also the payer has to expect their payment to debit them 0 or a 1 in 1024 chance of 0.1 btc
22:02:46thufir:so my original question is, is there anyone who has played with or spent thought on the issue who thinks the current implementation is flawed in that it could be exploited
22:03:13arubi:how? it seems pretty air tight to me
22:04:04arubi:as I understand it, the tx in question has more than 1 input. one is an input placed in and signed by the creator an of the tx, the client who is benefiting a service.
22:04:58arubi:she signs a tx with an input of 0.00009 btc that she controls, and adds to that tx an input that the service provider controls
22:05:11arubi:hmm wait, lemme read the wiki again
22:07:01arubi:now I'm not so sure: "Alice will create a multi-input transaction that spends her own coin AND Bob's secret transaction"
22:07:15arubi:what can be Bob's secret tx?
22:08:09thufir:it looks tight, but wondering if any changes to p2p protocol, etc, for instance disabled script opcodes, would have broke it, etc.
22:09:11thufir:bob's secret tx is one that is sent to alice first, off-chain
22:10:48thufir:sorry, he does not send it, just a range that the hash in his secret tx is in, alice is trying to guess it when generating her tx (the lottery ticket), bob has the secret tx so he will know if hers is valid or not, but not her
22:12:13arubi:yea but what are the inputs and outpus of his tx? how does it looks like?
22:12:35arubi:I mean, what does alice iterate over when trying to guess his tx?
22:14:25thufir:so yes, the inputs of his is why he actually has to have some coin to receive coin, as his ticket which is kept secret sends her btc, but her ticket includes sending it back to him. her ticket includes her payment of the full 0.1 btc and also a guess at his tx as input. he only told her a range his input is in
22:15:50arubi:I dunno, that doesn't sound right.. are you sure?
22:17:01thufir:somewhat. i suppose i will just port the nodejs to java :) sorry :) and in doing so learn the details. i've been unable to contact hi-entrophy, the implementor of the nodejs version,
22:18:20arubi:can you link me to the nodejs code?
22:19:50thufir:no problem!
22:44:55andytoshi:thufir: probablistic payments may be broken by tx malleability
22:45:48thufir:andytoshi: oh no! well that is what I was looking for. by what you say you mean broken by the change that was introduced to fix the tx malleability problem?
22:46:07thufir:andytoshi: either way, thanks for that very much!
22:46:28andytoshi:thufir: no, i mean it is broken by the malleability problem
22:47:05andytoshi:which there is no fix for, all that was fixed was the clients' handling of malleability (which was not ugly but not seriously broken)
22:47:11andytoshi:was ugly*
22:47:25thufir:aaah, i see. the fix was more midigation?
22:47:54andytoshi:yeah, sipa has a BIP which is toward a proper fix
22:48:25thufir:I will look up on that then, I am not familiar with what other than high level.
22:48:43andytoshi:but for example we don't even know if we know all the ways the ECDSA part of bitcoin signatures can be modified, so it may be incomplete
22:50:01thufir:ah right, now i am remembering, its actually the math allowing it, hmm. so you think it would allow bob to cheat by indeed modifying his secret tx to match alices guess?
22:50:27andytoshi:no, that can't happen, that would imply that SHA256d is broken
22:50:36andytoshi:which would in turn completely destroy the blockchain :)
22:51:20andytoshi:but it might cause him to lose the coins after broadcasting his tx, even if he broadcasts it alongside alice's tx
22:51:54thufir:ah, thx, was just about to ask what vector of attack it provided then.
22:53:42thufir:is that BIP accepted? or would it not be likely to be fixed before a better thing than probailitic payments like higherarchical chains?
22:54:56andytoshi:i'm not sure what it's status is, but for now all it does is make weirdly-formed transactions nonstandard. a next step would be to make them actually invalid, but that is a forking change and not to be done lightly
22:55:09andytoshi:there are more than enough usecases to justify a fork for malleability fixing...
22:55:20andytoshi:...but what we lack is a solution which we -know- to be an actual solution
22:55:26thufir:agreed. much of the potential revolutionary power of bitcoin is the power of the script, so limiting it would be unfortunate
22:55:35thufir:ah, i see
22:56:35andytoshi:well, with malleability you don't lose expressivity, by definition we would only kill scripts which have other functionally-identical forms
22:56:42thufir:thank you very much then! looks like I am to first grok tx malleability before attempting to proceed further then.
22:57:04thufir:that is good news
22:57:05andytoshi:maybe read the first and last page of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/malleability-faq.pdf
22:57:31andytoshi:the rest is just current-events gibberish which isn't current anymore (and all the gox stuff is actually untrue, i think)
22:58:28thufir:using gox and untrue in the same sentance is very redundant :)
23:01:03thufir:wow, this explains it much better than my previous read (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability) did, thanks again
23:07:44andytoshi:oh, cool, happy to hear it :)