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22:03:12justanotheruser:Do any wizards want to respond to vitalik? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/29yyjm/proofofstake_and_distributed_consensus_are/cipv8gb
22:03:15justanotheruser:...very pure PoS system, except a PoS system with trusted chain download sources, can always and forever be taken over by a 51% collusion of the genesis block allocation. If you're willing to accept that, then TaPoS-based systems plus slasher plus some kind of yet-undiscovered transaction aggregation protocol seem to be quite viable, albeit flimsier in certain ways.
23:07:36pigeons:yes "some kind of yet-undiscovered protocol"s often "seem to be quite viable"
23:17:26andytoshi:"if you're willing to accept that the chain can always and forever be taken over by a 51% collusion of genesis block allocation" already means "if you're willing to accept an extremely complex but still centralized consensus"
23:18:48andytoshi:i for one have no interest in discussing pure-PoS consensus ever again, it is complete bullshit and not even close to worth my time explaining things to the sorts of people who promotoe it
23:19:10andytoshi:ofc anyone who disagrees is welcome to spread my paper arounnd..
23:21:49justanotheruser:yeah, vitelik seems to have some crazy ideas in general, I just wasn't quite sure why that one was wrong.
23:25:17justanotheruser:Unfortunately when I link your paper they seem to think it doesn't apply to their cryptocurrency because it isn't explicitly mentioned. Nxt say "that is only for bitcoin forks" Peercoin says "that is only for PoS where coindays destroyed isn't measured, etc. I think they either don't understand it or didn't read it.
23:28:54andytoshi:yes, iirc nothing is explicitly mentioned in the PoS section, it is very general exactly to ward off that
23:41:42rodarmor:andytoshi: Can you link your paper? I haven’t read it yet.
23:41:58Ursium:i find it very disappointing, having been listening with great interest to this channel for about 3 months now, that people still pit ethereum vs bitcoin the way they do. I was personally asked to try to explain 'why ethereum was better than ethereum' by journalists, and told them to fuck off, since I don't see where the dichotomy is. Jon Matonis and I were on a panel recently and had a good time, I respect his
23:41:58Ursium:opinions a great deal and it was a pleasure meeting him. This false dichotomy needs to end, it's clickbait at best. The two projects have very different goals and can live side by side. Bitcoin 2.0 is what will come after 1.9 as executed by gavin & co. It won't be us.
23:43:02Ursium:'better than bitcoin' - apologies, typo.
23:43:14Ursium:they seem to love that shit though - pitting us against each other.
23:44:54phantomcircuit:Ursium, etherium is a neat project worth doing that will almost certainly be useless
23:47:18justanotheruser:rodarmor: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
23:47:37rodarmor:justanotheruser: thanks!
23:48:08Ursium:fair enough phantomcircuit , I personally can't predict the future, so yeah, it could fail or could succeed. But I believe in its vision. If i didn't I wouln't have spent 5 months of my life not getting paid lol :)
23:48:59phantomcircuit:Ursium, i'd say about 0.001% chance of being useful
23:49:07Ursium:thats pretty low :(
23:49:31phantomcircuit:yeah... it is
23:50:08phantomcircuit:to be fair i would have said bitcoins odds of being useful in 2009 was about 1%
23:51:10Ursium:that's interesting, because i was mining back in 2010, destroyed the HDD my bitcoins were on post pizza thing, on the basis that it was not worth my time saving them... you're right, it's all about 20/20 hindsight. I wish i still had my bitcoins :(
23:51:11sl01:phantomcircuit: how about now ?
23:52:25phantomcircuit:sl01, it's already useful so uh 100%?
23:52:28Ursium:then again, bitcoin post HDD wipe helped me understand money, the relationship to money, and the true value of bitcoin.
23:52:37Ursium:its useful so 1000000000000% :)
23:53:16Ursium:the real value of btc is not its fiat conversion, it's that bitcoins are yours. Yours to keep, yours to lose. Not a central bank to decide on.