04:46:24CryptOprah-ZzZzZ:CryptOprah-ZzZzZ is now known as CryptOprah
07:16:45iddo:looking for comments on deniable encryption for (BIP32) wallets: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.msg7766059#msg7766059
08:06:15sl01:the first rule of deniable encryption is you don't talk about deniable encryption
08:24:20sl01:iddo: isn't the issue extremely simple when you're using HD key generation?
08:30:17sl01:random thought: public in person electron microscope service centers... anyone can walk in with a chip, pay $X, and get a png of their chip, then can compare it with others of the same model or compare it against open source specs? Is there a way to manufacture chips with "transparent" tops so they are electron microscope-able with no extra work/damage?
09:37:29iddo:sl01: what issue?
09:46:34sl01:iddo: deniable encryption
09:48:03iddo:sl01: why more simple?
09:49:06sl01:iddo: i guess it's no different it's just when all you need to "hide" is 8 bytes it seems like a simpler problem, but maybe it's not
09:50:05sl01:what if the standard was just: all wallets have 100 HD key slots pre-allocated, and whatever pwd you put in, it checks all 100 slots to see if any decrypt correctly
09:51:28iddo:did you look at posts 298 and 192 ?
09:52:55iddo:smaller size is good because of extra size blowup required for deniability, but BIP32 wallet should store much more than the seed, to avoid re-computations
09:56:43sl01:iddo: apologies missed that you mentioned HD already
11:55:48cym:cym is now known as pen
13:18:57Emcy:https://gist.github.com/irungentoo/58a8b5da5b2becd09e0f who likes crypto challenges
13:19:50nshsome:(the National Crime Agency doesn't)
13:20:45Emcy:https://blog.libtoxcore.so/251/how-the-crypto-tox-uses-works does this crypto schema look at all secure
13:20:52Emcy:i have no idea myself
13:21:22fanquake:fanquake has left #bitcoin-wizards
13:21:59Emcy:nshsome if youre talking about the uk NCA theyre just rebranded SOCA and with more paedoterrism budget afaik
13:22:16Emcy:their cars are black instead of panda coloured
13:30:13Emcy:huh tox has a foundation now.....
14:03:01nsh:Emcy, yeah, they served me with a section 6 RIPA order to 'compel' my disclosure of encryption keying material
14:05:54nsh:Emcy, perhaps ##crypto to discuss this puzzle as it's out-of-scope here
14:28:03Emcy:never mind, i thought it was a crypto challenge
17:19:09cym:cym is now known as pen
19:23:10kazcw:kazcw is now known as justanotherjusta
19:23:18justanotherjusta:justanotherjusta is now known as kazcw
20:08:27nshsome:nshsome is now known as [nsh]
21:28:33super3:justanotheruser: how are you?
21:31:32justanotheruser:good, you?
21:32:19super3:just fine, just making some progress on a whitepaper
21:32:22justanotheruser:* justanotheruser is wondering if SNARKs will help me and whether disk space is even worth considering compared to bandwidth used and CPU usage
21:32:45justanotheruser:A whitepaper on what?
21:32:56super3:have you heard of Storj?
21:33:35super3:not the gmaxwell bitcoin agents one, the decentralized cloud one
21:34:03super3:yup that.
21:34:06justanotheruser:I'm wondering why a blockchain is necessary for storj
21:34:28mappum:there is no part of it that needs concensus, right?
21:35:19mappum:file hashes and signatures can live on their own
21:35:33super3:its just a method of organizing and managing the metadata, which can point to any network
21:35:58super3:data is not stored on the blockchain, just the metadata
21:36:15justanotheruser:super3: why does metadata need to be in a blockchain
21:36:36justanotheruser:mappum: I think blockchains are good for consensus AND being used as a buzzword
21:36:49super3:well for example if i wanted to send you a file
21:37:35super3:on the protocol level i would send a standard transaction to your public address containing the metadata for that file
21:37:48mappum:gg germany BTW
21:38:25super3:your client can read the transaction and retrieve the file from the network
21:38:51super3:which can be a url, ip, p2p network, another blockchain, etc
21:38:54mappum:so it's being used as a method of indirect communication?
21:38:58justanotheruser:super3: why is a blockchain necessary
21:39:00jgarzik:super3, So the chain is used for person-to-person messaging, essentially?
21:39:12jgarzik:ephemeral comms
21:39:25mappum:why not just send me an email?
21:40:24justanotheruser:you could just broadcast the "transaction" (more like message) and have the file sent to you and not include it in a blockchain
21:40:48super3:jgarzik: it gets a little blurrier than person-to-person
21:41:04super3:jgarzik: because we can execute application logic based on the data
21:42:03justanotheruser:super3: why does the data need to be in a blockchain?
21:43:39super3:justanotheruser: because node a stores a file on node b, we needs a distributed and open communication system to allow them to operate in a trustless manner
21:44:50super3:node a issues hash challenges to node b to verify that node b is honest
21:45:06super3:and node a issues payment to node b if he is happy
21:45:19justanotheruser:super3: you don't need a blockchain for a distributed open comunication system
21:45:31justanotheruser:you could just remove the blockchain and have everything in the mempool
21:45:32mappum:why not use bitcoin for the payments?
21:45:48super3:but lets say node a wanted to be dishonest
21:46:00mappum:you could even technically use it for the file hashes, except some may not be happy with it
21:46:13super3:a merkle root of the challenges is the the blockchain
21:46:18super3:so node a can't cheat
21:46:47super3:mappum: i want to reintegrate with bitcoin whenever treechains or sidechains magically become a thing
21:47:35super3:justanotheruser: i agree that we can move away from a blockchain with time
21:47:51super3:justanotheruser: but it works quite well for now and also facilitates payment
21:49:05super3:mappum: already have plans to reintegrate as long as we have some sort of pegged asset
21:50:07super3:mappum: i think storj will have to put some developers behind microchannels or micropayments on the bitcoin protocol to make it work nicely
21:50:36super3:bitcoinj is nice, but it would add a bunch of headache to our code base
21:51:02contrapumpkin:contrapumpkin is now known as copumpkin
21:52:23super3:has there been any progress on that outside of bitcoinj that i'm not aware of?
21:55:38mappum:on micropayment channels?
21:56:01mappum:i don't think so, but it wouldn't be too difficult to implement
21:56:50super3:essentially just port the bitcoinj's implementation to python
21:57:24super3:i haven't dived too deep into those waters
21:58:06mappum:well any implementation will be pretty similar. you just make the deposit tx, make the refund tx, have the receiver sign the refund, then broadcast the deposit
21:59:06mappum:i started working on a distributed storage thing kind of like storj a while ago: http://filecoin.org
22:00:09super3:node that storj is focused on building apps and protocol
22:00:17mappum:also blockchain-based, but in this case its because storage is the resource securing the chain, and miners get paid for their storage
22:00:29super3:we would like to implement multiple file algorithms
22:00:39super3:the market and applications can decided which one is best
22:01:06mappum:that's an interesting order of work, usually you design the system before you sell it
22:02:06super3:if you start having something working i'd be happy to support it, and integrate it into our apps
22:02:34super3:yeah its kinda of flipping the model, but i think it works best for this platform and our market
22:03:25super3:you can build file storage application that is distributed and doesn't have points of failures
22:03:40super3:and you build better and better algorithms to make it scale
22:04:20super3:you avoid the two weeks(tm)
22:04:42super3:and it designed to get better with time without actually affecting usability
22:07:12super3:mappum: i like that website, what did you use to build it?
22:10:03super3:ah i see bootstrap in there
22:10:50mappum:i don't think i really used it much though, it would probably look pretty much the same without it
22:11:27mappum:but that was only like 1/1000th of my concern when making that, it's the actual content taht matters
22:11:40mappum:i think that could be a viable solution for asic-proof mining
22:12:52super3:well you would still have large space mining hardware
22:13:21super3:but unlike ASICs, hard drives are quite accessible
22:13:48mappum:preventing big mining operations is a way harder problem to solve
22:14:06mappum:this also doesn't prevent pools or botnets
22:14:43super3:slide 8
22:15:09super3:userspace has more storage space than the entire cloud by orders of magnitude
22:16:00super3:initially it will be very profitable while its a new concept
22:16:25super3:but over a few years it could trend to nearer to zero
22:16:31mappum:you're fundraising? where do you expect to make money?
22:16:44mappum:oh, crowdfunding
22:17:18super3:all the hardware for users is a sunk costs
22:18:54super3:the users will be happy, but it could be the ultimate checkmate for centralized mining in the long term
23:16:59rdponticelli:join bitcoin-dev