00:34:19wfbarks:gmaxwell: I mean to say bitcoin is anti fragile with respect to the economy as a whole
00:57:28tacotime:looks like ethereum is considering moving to dpos
01:00:15tromp_:they always seem to be considering everything:(
01:06:38tacotime:i'm wary of any association with bitshares.
01:07:21tacotime:also strange that ethereum would even be involved with them, as charles h hates david larimer.
02:17:04tromp:you mean daniel larimer. true; there's no love lost between those two, although charles manages to hide his disklike better in public discourse
02:20:18grubles:gmaxwell, can i ask you to join -ops
02:29:26zooko`:zooko` is now known as zooko
02:48:58tacotime:s/david/daniel, yeah
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03:26:08jgarzik:tacotime, really? A year or so ago, CH and DL were best buds. CH was pushing DL projects.
03:29:59tacotime:jgarzik, there was some internal drama and falling out at invictus, or so i'm told.
03:30:24jgarzik:Always, there is drama.
03:30:30jgarzik:Where there is bitcoin, there is drama.
03:30:32tacotime:apparently though, CH is now gone from ethereum itself?
03:30:46tacotime:which explains the recent turn of events well i suppose :P
03:35:28dsnrk:I'm still at a complete loss how they expect to do their "genesis" sale. they spent part of the P2SH funds, and sent the change back to the P2SH hash again. as far as I can tell they're going to have a hard time sorting out who owns what with their design of the "not an IPO".
03:36:21pigeons:"they" being invictus/bitshares?
03:36:51dsnrk:"they" being whoever the Ethereum pre-sale people are.
03:37:06pigeons:oh ok, they being etherum folks
03:37:15pigeons:i thought they already did their genesis sale
03:37:31pigeons:and are spending it on rent.
03:38:08dsnrk:their design for it has the user make two keys sha256(seed) and sha256(seed + 0x01), making the first a Bitcoin address and the second an ethereum address. the user sent funds to the bitcoin address, which then sent the funds to a P2SH script for a multisig transaction. the user keeps the private key of both, but there's no sensible way of proving they are related without things getting very messy.
03:38:27dsnrk:pigeons: it's still ongoing.
03:39:34pigeons:yeah why stop so long as money is coming in
03:48:24dsnrk:I was pointing it out as indicative more than anything. there's lots of smart things you could do with EC there to make a very elegant solution, but somebody signed off on the crypto-dumbass one. for a group that's meant to be spearheading the Bitcoin 2.0 revolution it's a very odd decision.
04:08:31tacotime:well, you could also just OP_RETURN a 20-byte pubkeyhash for your ethereum account alongside your normal tx to the ethereum p2sh address.
04:09:15tacotime:you don't really have to so any fancy stuff i don't think -- you can always sign to show you owned the inputs later.
04:09:50tacotime:(do the OP_RETURN as the second out, i mean)
04:12:37dsnrk:there's lots of less silly ways they could have done it really
04:15:16grubles:grubles is now known as daniel
04:23:00dsnrk:Andreas M. Antonopoulos: "Bitcoin has achieved a level of computing where no single State can overthrow through computation alone" .. “The effort to do so would require a massive covert operation of chip fabrication and then a coordinated assault that would give them dominance over the next block for 10 minutes and we would kick the bastards off the network”
04:25:55tacotime:well, it'd be difficult to kick them off the network if they just connect from random IPs to submit blocks, I suspect. and i'm sure the chip fabrication isn't beyond some three letter agencies.
04:26:28dsnrk:yes, I posted the quote because it's unbelievably stupid.
04:26:32tacotime:you can collectively try to prevent things like reorgs i guess.
04:26:53dsnrk:you can't really. miners are anonymous.
04:27:10tacotime:yeah. well, by centralizing the network temporarily i mean.
04:27:19tacotime:but isn't that what we're fighting against? :)
04:28:59dsnrk:moreover there's no mechanism for doing so. it's impossible to tell a "good" block for bad, or even if the rest of the network knows about the "good" block.
04:29:20tacotime:probably the biggest disincentive is just financial -- if you have the capacity to make a pile of ASICs and are a government, you might as well just use them to profit.
04:29:32dsnrk:it's a ludicrous thing to suggest, especially in front of a conference of people.
04:29:45tacotime:well, i've seen him do it a few times in person. :P
04:30:33dsnrk:* dsnrk rolls eyes
04:37:31tacotime:but i mean -- i don't know, bitcoin is a totally transparent financial system currently with double-digit inflation, so it's not really competing with the dollar of most countries in any way right now, and the market cap reflects that. i don't think any state is terribly threatened.
04:38:42dsnrk:I don't really care about if anybody would *want to*, I challenge the conclusion that nobody could ever attack it.
04:39:14dsnrk:if you take that thought path, PoS is safe because nobody would ever attack something they have a stake in. we know that is not true.
05:06:54zooko:Isn't the problem people who don't have stake, but have their old private keys that *used* to have stake ... ?
05:23:54moa:jgarzik: "Where there is bitcoin, there is drama." ... heh it's like a daytime soap
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06:25:24dsnrk:zooko: eh, sort of. there's lots of issues which in my mind are amplified by the idea of "delegated proof of stake".
06:32:56gwillen:dsnrk: is there a doc somewhere explaining DPOS?
06:33:02gwillen:I've seen it referenced but I don't yet know what it is
06:33:20gwillen:(most importantly, of course, how it differs from PoS)
06:35:30dsnrk:gwillen: http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/ < half way down
06:42:13gwillen:dsnrk: do you know if there are any actual implementations of this, or even pseudocode? It seems like there are some ... significant details left open
06:45:06dsnrk:gwillen: I don't know, I only heard of it being a thing very recently. there's a "whitepaper" link for BitShares but it's a 404.
06:48:55dsnrk:it's been posted in this channel before, but nobody really talked about it. pieter asks how the 100 delegates are chosen, and there's no proper answer
06:49:03gwillen:* gwillen nods
06:51:35gwillen:well, the whitepaper describes a voting scheme involving putting bits into transactions, so I presume the delegate list for building on any given block is chosen by examining the utxo list at that block for votes
06:51:59gwillen:utxo set, even
06:53:12gwillen:they don't specify, once you have the delegate set, how you decide which one makes the block when
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08:08:37dsnrk:a less crappy version of the output size graph from before, showing bc.i relayed transactions versus non-bc.i transactions. it's also now deuteranopia-safe for Mike. https://i.imgur.com/nKK25PU.png
08:28:57dsnrk:odd features when you graph out the total output size of all transactions. there's some blocks which only seem to contain only extremely small output sizes, and ones of decreasing size from 1 BTC and down. https://i.imgur.com/7WOCR9u.png
10:23:15Eliel:how are the blocks ordered in that graph?
10:23:53Eliel:if it's time order. then that's very strange and I'd suspect a bug in your parsing code or something like that.
10:27:25dsnrk:Eliel: which one? second is block ordered.
10:27:51Eliel:second one
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10:47:41Eliel:if the blocks with this weirdness were spread out randomly, it could be a miner with eccentric policy for choosing transactions.
10:48:05Eliel:however, they're clustered, so that's not really a possibility.
10:59:27dsnrk:could be an artifact from how I was scraping from blockchain.info (making graphs like this wasn't the purpose). I cant explain how anything I did would have manifested in that way though.
11:01:43nsh:no-one going to crypto14?
11:02:11nsh:i need to get me one of these telepressence robots
11:06:46dsnrk:nsh: what happens when somebody runs off with it?
11:10:57dsnrk:Eliel: the graph is correct, each point in it is a vout. what's happening in the blocks with a downward trending line is a large vout is being split into many dust payments sequentially though the block.
11:14:53dsnrk:Eliel: if we graph the vout size *per transaction*, you can see them happening all over the place, but mainly in blocks from a particular mining pool. https://i.imgur.com/t1F2Mvo.png
11:17:46Eliel:ah right, they're extremely long transaction chains sending very small outputs.
11:18:40dsnrk:* dsnrk nods
11:18:54dsnrk:chains so long they fill entire blocks, which is pretty impressive.
11:19:30Eliel:someone really needs to consider implementing sendmany transactions :P
11:20:04nsh:dsnrk, i imagine that self-destruct thing that the daleks do...
11:20:31dsnrk:nsh: they had a lot of troubles with starts before they could fly though.
11:21:04dsnrk:Eliel: well they are using sendmany, their transactions are *huge*
11:21:36nsh:* nsh smiles
11:22:05Eliel:... ok sendmany chain. now I'm impressed.
11:28:42dsnrk:well the blocks that look weird with the progression down, the top outputs are the change, the huge block of blue below it is the dust they're making
11:36:16dsnrk:here's a sample of the dust explosion transactions if anybody was curious. http://0bin.net/paste/mBLuSXHHhMBdH8CG#e29HDYdITEd4jH6AM9jVUJOrieIDy11J6-Z8Rikq7tA
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22:15:12tromp__:dumb question: is the current hash rate of 171,203,348 GH/s measured in single or double sha256s?
22:15:38tromp__:thx, sipa
22:18:21nsh:it's measured in silicon