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17:47:47cookie::super3 how are you guaranteeing that storj will be faster than centralized services?
17:48:39cookie:even if this were the case wouldn't the trade off of a 1ms transaction confirmation and security be too much?
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20:18:05Luke-Jr:* Luke-Jr grumbles about libsnark examples not having any clear indication of where the proved program's logic actually is
20:27:04amiller:Luke-Jr, what do you mean?
20:30:03amiller:you mean this example? https://github.com/scipr-lab/libsnark/blob/master/src/r1cs/examples/r1cs_examples.tcc
20:49:21Luke-Jr:amiller: sure, I see a bunch of input setup, but no actual program O.o
20:51:17hearn:did you read this?
20:51:30hearn:that's the closest thing to proving actual programs
20:51:32hearn:it's quite easy to follow
20:56:34hearn:Luke-Jr: the program in that file is defined as a series of gates, so you're looking at it ..
21:53:57super3:cookie: p2p > server-client
21:54:04super3:i think thats pretty clear
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21:58:13justanotheruser:super3: I don't think that is obvious.
21:58:46justanotheruser:super3: I don't think that is obvious.
21:59:03justanotheruser:The idea that p2p is better for everything seems to be echoed in the bitcoin community though.
21:59:17justanotheruser:It's better for a lot of things
21:59:26super3:well as far as speed
21:59:51super3:so what you lose on lookup time you gain in throughput from multiple peers
21:59:56super3:or at least thats the theory
22:00:16justanotheruser:I think theres huge scales of economy in hosting.
22:00:31super3:also storj can be run as a centralized service, just as a tool
22:01:00super3:the economics of fungible data are quite interesting
22:01:40super3:completely uncharted territory
22:02:03justanotheruser:super3: why does storjcoin need a blockchain?
22:03:17super3:i can give you a 20 page answer :-P, but the tl;dr is you need a public and auditable ledger
22:04:01super3:the solution is mainly rooted in that i need to prove that the file exsists, and i haven't modified it
22:04:20justanotheruser:I don't see why ordering matters there
22:04:59super3:well it reward mechanism is just as important
22:05:05super3:ordering matters because you must prove it over time
22:05:13justanotheruser:before I go, what is the problem if I construct that proof and there is a 100 block reorg?
22:05:31super3:i can have a file one day, and not the other
22:05:57super3:justanotheruser: explain more
22:08:54Luke-Jr:super3: um, what?
22:09:18super3:Luke-Jr: what are you confused about?
22:09:20Luke-Jr:generally, p2p < server-client
22:09:54super3:in terms of speed of file transfer?
22:10:26Luke-Jr:unless there are a LOT of peers sourcing it
22:11:01super3:peers how have an inventive
22:11:12super3:whereas before they were mostly just volunteers
22:11:52super3:p2p is more important, but we still have the server-client model in http://metadisk.org
22:12:11super3:metadisk is just supposed to cache things on the p2p network and serve them to you direct
22:13:01super3:allows your cake and eat it too
22:13:32justanotheruser:super3: what do you mean you have a file one day and not the other? The files aren't stored in the blockchain, a proof of files integrity being moved 100 blocks in the future shouldn't effect it's existence
22:15:55super3:im confused on how a block reorg comes into this
22:16:18super3:you pass the proofs directly, if you do that through the blockchain you end up with a ton of overhead
22:16:59justanotheruser:super3: I'm mentioning a reorg because a 100 block reorg being fine indicates that the ordering doesn't matter much
22:17:36justanotheruser:if you didn't even have a blockchain and just had the data floating around in some other data structure and that was fine, why use a blockchain?
22:18:34Luke-Jr:* Luke-Jr can't imagine any reason for Storj to use a blockchain
22:19:46amiller:i can think of reasons you'd want to make storj better by having automatic payments-for-periodic-PoR but you would need an altcoin with more expressive opcodes or ethereum
22:20:29amiller:they might not even be necessary though, if storj works fine with either the storage provider or the client being able to walk away from their interaction at any time, then you don't need a blockchain
22:22:27super3:we are using the blockchain as a pseudonymous database for the network
22:22:39super3:it also gets into Bitcoin(big B) and bitcoin(little b)
22:22:46super3:we can run storj as a toolset, or a network
22:22:58super3:let me step you through a use case
22:23:11super3:i want to send Luke-Jr a picture of my cat
22:23:23Luke-Jr:does it look like Mark's cat?
22:24:39super3:also included in the picture of the cat is a paper wallet, which has all of the gox funds
22:24:50sipa:they exist? :o
22:25:05Luke-Jr:sipa: I presume until the lawyers figure out how to liquidate them
22:25:26Luke-Jr:then 80% will probably drop to 8%
22:25:29Luke-Jr:or .8%
22:25:57super3:nah giving them to Luke-Jr as a trusted member of the community he can return all the funds to the correct people any we can all have a "I got my coins back party"
22:26:02super3:anyways back to the story
22:26:27Luke-Jr:can I just take my share and pass them on to someone else to distribute? <.<
22:28:26super3:so Luke can pass me a standard address like 1AViqW66xhnxkdRjCknQGYvf1k3mj5aGM5
22:28:55justanotheruser:so really storjs blockchain is just a namecoin clone?
22:29:17super3:justanotheruser: thats like 1/6 of the reason we use the blockchain
22:29:27Luke-Jr:super3: you're going to send me bitcoins too? :D
22:29:57super3:we can lookup the protocol, and public pgp key associated with that address
22:30:05justanotheruser:right, but I'm not convinced that you logging proof of file integrity data in the blockchain is a good usecase
22:30:10Luke-Jr:super3: addresses don't have protocols or PGP keys associated
22:30:27super3:they can
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22:30:49super3:not with your 40 byte standard bitcoin transactions they can't
22:30:49Luke-Jr:no, that isn't what addresses are for
22:30:58Luke-Jr:that's what you're talking about
22:31:13Luke-Jr:[22:28:26] so Luke can pass me a standard address like 1AViqW66xhnxkdRjCknQGYvf1k3mj5aGM5
22:31:20justanotheruser:storj is on top of the bitcoin block chain?
22:31:46super3:you basically look at the first transactions to find that informatin
22:32:06Luke-Jr:super3: cmon, I thought you were smarter than this <.<
22:32:08super3:justanotheruser: yes and no
22:32:14justanotheruser:So SPV isn't possible?
22:32:48super3:yes, for coins or for data?
22:33:09justanotheruser:for getting the "pgps kef assicated with that address"
22:33:20justanotheruser:* justanotheruser needs to learn to type
22:40:27super3:well this is metadata so there is no checking inputs up to a certain point
22:40:35super3:anyways thats the application layer
22:41:29super3:the more use for it is that if you have a file you have to complete a hash challenge, and prove your answer is in the merkle root of all challenges
22:42:17super3:yes you could use a different data stricture
22:42:49super3:but the blockchain is more useful in many different methods to prevent colluding nodes and sybil attacks
22:43:28super3:there is no one solution, which is why you have maidsafe, siacoin, permacoin, and storj
23:00:59super3:amiller: seems like i can't join that other channel