00:35:27amiller:* amiller digs in to the ripple whitepaper.....
01:12:03Dr-G3:Dr-G3 is now known as Dr-G
02:07:10alferzz:alferzz is now known as alferz
04:37:33gmaxwell:My response to jeff here may be of interest, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2f6iiq/bitcoin_is_really_fragile_bitcoin_core_developer/ck6es4t (copyedits accepted)
04:39:05Luke-Jr:gmaxwell: I don't get " all of it faulty,"
04:39:47gmaxwell:All the software is broken.
04:40:05gmaxwell:Every implementation has consensus significant bugs.
04:40:35gmaxwell:(while I cannot name them all— otherwise I'd be fixing them instead of writing that— I know that they are there)
04:43:17justanot1eruser:gmaxwell: doesn't seem to contradict him, rather explains how the software by itself can achieve consensus without humans messing with it even though humans may decide to mess with it and form a new network that accepts hardforked rules.
04:45:31gmaxwell:As I said at the start, I don't disagree with Jeff. I think I probably do disagree with what some people who read what Jeff said might walk away with.
04:46:02gmaxwell:I think you can read jeffs message and go "yea, it's not fragile, people will just magically fix it". ... and miss the huge risk and tension inherent in that.
04:46:51gmaxwell:We-the-people can only fix it because it is weak and not living up to its security goals, ... of course, this weakness is partially because fixes very much are required.
04:51:06sipa:ultimately, we-the-people are thise deciding to run verification nodes, and thus are obviously in control - collectively - to fix whatever problems exist in the software
04:51:51super3:i mean the human element is what gives bitcoin value, and will maintain it
04:51:51sipa:however, that doesn't mean that the goal shouldn't be to limit the involvement of we-the-people to the absolute minimum possible
04:52:23super3:but the underling problems is that only covers fixes
04:52:31super3:not improvements
04:53:37super3:case 1: this is a major flaw (march 2013) and your bitcoins will lose all value if its not solved
04:54:03super3:average user: oh no, what can i do to help? this must be fixed
04:55:06super3:case 2: this improves security and improves efficiency by 20%
04:55:15super3:average user: and i care why?
04:56:17super3:so the question is how you can get the average user to care about underling improvements, not just fixes.
04:56:39gmaxwell:sipa: right, the less we-the-people are needed the harder it becomes to manipulate we-the-people into violating the system's promises.
04:58:48sipa:right; we-the-people (well, satoshi...) determined what properties we wanted in a system, exactly so that we-the-people or trust in them would bot be required for the system's correctness
05:40:04Dr-G2:Dr-G2 is now known as Dr-G
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18:18:33gmaxwell:petertodd: I'm confused here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=766893.0
18:19:01gmaxwell:where did you write a proof of concept patch? I know I wrote one.
18:41:38petertodd:gmaxwell: https://github.com/viacoin/viacoin/issues/5
18:42:05petertodd:gmaxwell: "I wrote up an implementation of it awhile back: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/op-checknlocktime I don't think I actually tested it - it was just a code exercise - but it should be pretty close to what we actually need modulo testing."
18:42:31gmaxwell:I totally don't remember that. weird.
18:43:11petertodd:I think I mentioned it on -dev once in passing; I made it on my lunch break.
18:43:43petertodd:My main motivation to add it to viacoin is just to test the whole soft-fork process out in all aspects.
18:44:43gmaxwell:yea, you'd mentioned that— I just didn't recall seeing the patch before.
18:44:54petertodd:I might not have actually posted it
18:45:00petertodd:it's pretty trivial anyway
18:46:38gmaxwell:ah this is different from my approach.
18:47:34gmaxwell:What I'd done was allowed the script to introspect the transaction's locktime to test it. What your implementation is is just a distinctive locktime inside the script.
18:48:16petertodd:One use-case for CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY that I discovered recently was for PayPub: without it the publisher of the data can just hold onto the funds, not spending them, for an indefinite amount of time and the people paying for it don't get the data they want. You'd solve that with IF HASH EQUALVERIFY CHECKSIG ELSE CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY DROP ENDIF
18:48:41petertodd:yeah, I didn't want it to be possible to make a script unspendable after a date, only spendable after
18:50:19gmaxwell:Mine was still a verify so it was still one sided in that way. Now I don't remember what advantage I was gaining from testing the one on the transaction beyond just avoding having to inspect the scriptpubkey to know if a transaction was locktime valid or not. I'm pretty sure there was a reason.
18:50:51petertodd:what exactly were the semantics of your version?
18:54:07gmaxwell:https://people.xiph.org/~greg/OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY.patch what it didn't handle was the dual meaning of locktime, which was the main design problem with it IIRC.
18:56:52petertodd:ah, I remember that, I think we decided it was a strict improvement, as it removed the need to pass time or block height to EvalScript (modulo the dual meaning)
18:58:29petertodd:handling the dual meaning shouldn't be a big deal: if < LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD then fail if tx.nLockTime > LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD
19:08:35jtimon:cool, we have another payment processor?
19:08:36jtimon:https://cointopay.com
19:09:21jtimon:we should contact them to get listed in the foundation's site
19:13:42maaku:jtimon: wrong channel :)
19:14:05jtimon:upps, sorry
20:34:16Luke-Jr:(context: I think jtimon was talking about Freicoin Foundation :P)
20:39:13jtimon:yep, sorry again, that was #freicoin
22:17:12gwollon:gwollon is now known as gwillen