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16:39:39jgarzik:gmaxwell, andytoshi: does 2-way pegging require any changes to bitcoin protocol?
16:40:48tacotime:gmaxwell: bcx is stating there's some kind of crypto problem in the ring signature algo for BRS https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=786201.msg8861544#msg8861544
16:40:51tacotime:but ehm
16:41:24tacotime:not really sure i believe it, it sounds like it might also be in the ecdh for stealth addressing, and bcx hasn't ever really shown himself to be a crypto master
16:41:56zooko:* zooko pays attention to the conversation
16:42:15zooko:… about 2-way-pegging, I mean.
16:42:24tacotime:zooko: heh.
16:50:29andytoshi:jgarzik: yes, bitcoin would need to understand the SPV proofs
16:50:48andytoshi:jgarzik: tho ofc you can do a trust-based version using multisig with existing bitcoin
16:52:08Taek42:what's a good resource for understanding side chains better?
16:53:47andytoshi:Taek42: jgarzik asked last night, i think at this point http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32108143/ is the only good resource out therae
16:54:43jgarzik:Taek42, "side chains with 2-way pegging" ITYM :)
16:55:01jgarzik:andytoshi, hmmm
16:55:10Taek42:I meant side chains in general as well
16:55:11andytoshi:(i'm going afk for abt an hour)
16:55:15skinnkavaj:tacotime: I don't believe BCX is trolling
16:58:41tacotime:skinnkavaj: ehm... we've had two academic cryptographers review the reference code, so it seems unlikely, but who knows.
16:59:21sipa:jgarzik: how do you call a non-merged mined chain that has 2-way pegging?
17:16:34gmaxwell:tacotime: that sounds like BS. Proof that the privacy and security of stealth address style addresses is perfect is trivial.
17:21:23jgarzik:sipa, side chain with 2-way pegging
17:21:40sipa:but you told me that "side chain" for you means "merged mined chain"
17:22:00sipa:the pegging is independent of the mining system used
17:22:36sipa:it's pointless to argue about semantics of course - but having consistent naming is useful
17:22:44jgarzik:sipa, Not quite. IMV, "side chain" applies to any chain that is "connected" to the bitcoin blockchain. That can include merge-mined, the put-block-header-into-OP_RETURN side chain design of mine, or similar. Thus my definition of side chain is "borrows or links bitcoin mainnet security somehow"
17:23:09jgarzik:counterparty & mastercoin are not side chains
17:23:11sipa:jgarzik: i'm talking about a totally independently mined chain, but with 2-way pegging to bitcoin
17:23:32jgarzik:sipa, pegged chain
17:24:04jgarzik:"side chain" implies to me it is an adjunct to the main chain somehow
17:25:51gmaxwell:jgarzik: I'm not sure how "sideness" implied the merged mining though. Adjunct might mean in some other reason (e.g. because it's pegged), e.g. why privledge sharing POW?
17:26:12jgarzik:Can 1-way pegging be done without bitcoin protocol modification?
17:27:23sipa:see counterparty
17:27:44Dr-G2:Dr-G2 is now known as Dr-G
17:27:46gmaxwell:Sure. Adam posted about that a couple years ago. But its yucking in an extreme, IMO because it implies losers.
17:28:15jgarzik:gmaxwell, Not sure what that means. What implies losers?
17:28:40gmaxwell:E.g. if the 1-way-peg system becomes boring or disliked or replaced later, the people left holding the coins are screwed... since they can't take them back out again.
17:29:57gmaxwell:They could only hope to sell them off to a greater fool faster. Also creates a risk of moving coins into it, since you'll be stuck.
17:30:08jgarzik:gmaxwell, somebody actually holds the coins? sipa just said it was like counterparty (a burn)
17:30:28sipa:1-way peg means burning coins in one side to instantiate them on the other side
17:30:29jgarzik:* jgarzik is confused, and clearly needs to research more on 1-way peg.
17:30:47jgarzik:sipa, gmaxwell doesn't seem to be talking about burning, but holding.
17:30:57sipa:holding the coin on the other side
17:31:22gmaxwell:one way is like a roach motel. Coins check in, but they don't check out. They're burned in some kind of way in bitcoin to make them appear on the secondary system.
17:31:58jgarzik:ok, so it is a burn, not any sort of holding.
17:32:07gmaxwell:jgarzik: going back to the terminology; would you call namecoin a "sidechain"? it's merged mined.. but doesn't care about bitcoin at all, and would keep working fine if everyone stopped using bitcoin.
17:32:07jgarzik:yah, provable burn is easy
17:32:20jgarzik:gmaxwell, yes, I consider namecoin a side chain
17:32:42jgarzik:gmaxwell, in _practice_ it is heavily linked to bitcoin
17:32:49sipa:its security is
17:32:52sipa:its currency isn't
17:33:01jgarzik:* jgarzik nods noddingly
17:33:10sipa:i believe you're alone with that definition for sidechains
17:33:13jgarzik:and when that security goes away, most if not all users will disappear
17:33:21jgarzik:thus its life reallly is linked to bitcoin
17:33:27sipa:but it does highlight that sidechain is a vaguely defined concept
17:33:40jgarzik:it's a general term
17:33:47jgarzik:more widely applicable than just 2-way pegging
17:34:01gmaxwell:For example, if many people decided this extra name feature was super better than bitcoin and stopped using bitcoins and started using namecoins... and just gave up on bitcoin (moving just that hasrate to namecoin)....
17:34:43gmaxwell:I think the notion that I've used is "adjunct" and could include a number of ways of being related.
17:35:16gmaxwell:Thought I'd elevate currency connection (e.g. some kind of pegging) as more important than other relationship.
17:36:21jgarzik:RE "For example" I agree... in theory. In practice, I think that's highly unlikely and impractical. I think it's merge-mined for life, and as a result, a side chain.
17:36:32jgarzik:lives and dies on the teat of bitcoin ;p
17:36:45sipa:why not just call it 'merged-mined chain' - that term is way older than sidechains...
17:37:02jgarzik:merged-mined chains are a subset of side chains
17:37:11sipa:imho it's completely orthogonal
17:37:13jgarzik:side chains can include block header in OP_RETURN
17:37:45sipa:the decision of how a chain is secured is completely orthogonal to how its currency is defined
17:38:11sipa:a chain can be independently mined, or merged-mined, or even just a ledger defined by a single server
17:38:35sipa:the currency can be natively created through subdidy, or through issuance, or defined by 2-way pegging
17:39:07sipa:but it seems you want sidechain to completely refer to the chain, and not be about the currency at all
17:39:12jgarzik:if it's life is linked to bitcoin main chain in some way, it is a side chain.
17:39:37sipa:while i think pretty much everyone else has been using it as propererty of the the currency, independently of how its chain is defined
17:39:56sipa:sidecurrency would probably be less confusing
17:40:46jgarzik:based on developments coming down the road.... disagree
17:41:07zooko`:sipa: what's "subsidy", vs. issuance?
17:41:20jgarzik:well, ok, example from today too: namecoin. it's not about the _currency_. it's about the chain. The dataset in the chain.
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17:41:31jgarzik:NMC is just a token needed to active the decentralized app.
17:41:48sipa:jgarzik: fair enough - i agree that the 'chain' part is confusing in the name
17:42:05sipa:but i really think you're the only one that wants to widen sidechain to include things like namecoin
17:42:35jgarzik:Perhaps. But I will strongly and loudly disagree with the strict definition of "side chain == chain with 2-way pegging"
17:42:51jgarzik:I think that's just Blockstream marketing
17:43:04gmaxwell:I have no freeking idea what you're talking about there.
17:43:40sipa:i think i've been using a sidechain as "chain with a currency related to that of a main chain"
17:43:50jtimon:namecoin could survive bitcoin's death
17:43:58jgarzik:c.f. theory, practice.
17:43:59sipa:which is wider than 2-way pegging, but is independent of how it is mined
17:44:30sipa:zooko: a chain could have a property that allows a trusted single party to issue new coins (for example with a promise to exchange it for something in the real world)
17:44:35jtimon:in my mind sidechains and 2 way peg are the same thing, it's just a way to avoid the terms altcoin and altchain
17:45:07jgarzik:see? :)
17:45:10gmaxwell:jtimon: What about if the 2-way peg is asymetric?
17:45:48jtimon:mhmm, not sure what you mean but if it has 2 way peg is a sidechain
17:45:58gmaxwell:e.g. it's not 1:1, you get 1000 sidechain coins, and can redeem 1001 sidechain coins for one bitcoin?
17:46:06jtimon:a chain with 2-way peg to litecoin would be a litecoin sidechain
17:46:26jtimon:gmaxwell why would you want to do that?
17:46:40gmaxwell:What if you have a chain which is merged mined with bitcoin, but has 2-way pegs to both litecoin and bitcoin as distinct units of account that can be traded on it.
17:46:56gmaxwell:jtimon: I wouldn't it's stupid, generally, but it's technically feasable within the same framework.
17:47:27jtimon:then I guess I would just call it "stupid idea"?
17:47:29gmaxwell:Or what if it's not merged mined, but uses another POW? or what if it's merged mined but requires a UTXO query POW in addition?
17:48:09jtimon:in the other case, it would be a sidechain to both btc and ltc
17:48:12zooko:sipa: I see.
17:48:14gmaxwell:jtimon: well imagine you want something with demurrage like properties? or bond like properties?
17:48:19sipa:jgarzik: so, in your mind, an independently-mined chain whose only currency is 2-way pegged from bitcoin... is that a sidechain or not? its life in also inherently linked to bitcoin
17:48:35jtimon:you can make a sidechain with demurrage fees
17:49:14sipa:but inherently linked to bitcoin-the-currency, not directly to bitcoin-the-chain
17:49:46zooko:sipa: that is a thing that I've considered creating.
17:50:07jtimon:and I don't see why sidechains can't use another pow or the other thing you said
17:50:08jgarzik:sipa, yes
17:50:36jgarzik:whether through mining or currency or some other factor, life & death are -- in all practicality, not theory -- linked to bitcoin main chain.
17:51:05sipa:jgarzik: ok, so it means "either block creation is linked to another chain, or currency instanciation is linked to another currency"
17:51:26jgarzik:I think that's a fair definition
17:51:47jtimon:jgarzik what's wrong with sidechain == chain with 2 way peg? if that's not what it means, we will have to invent another term because 2wp-chain is very ugly
17:51:58jgarzik:pegged chain
17:52:12jtimon:yeah that's less ugly
17:52:14sipa:well there is one point: 2wp is not a property of the chain
17:52:26sipa:it's a property of a currency inside a chain
17:52:44sipa:so having 'chain' in the name is confusing
17:53:00jtimon:but why can't we keep using merged mined chains for merged mined chains?
17:53:09jgarzik:you can
17:53:14jgarzik:side chain is a superset of that definition
17:53:53jtimon:rephrase, why do you want a term that includes 2wp (merged mined or not) + merged mined altcoins?
17:54:44jgarzik:jtimon, it's dumb to exclude non-2way-pegged configurations from being called "side chain"
17:54:49jgarzik:such as https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=676703.msg7682680#msg7682680
17:55:30Taek42:I believe vitalik defined side chain as 'Uses a separate blockchain and the Bitcoin currency', which makes sense to me. I don't really see why merge mining should be lumped in. Nobody else seems to use the term that way
17:55:36jgarzik:Or ephemeral-coin design discussed here, that I would like to implement.
17:55:48jgarzik:you get rights to post on that side chain, by proving unspendable UTXO from bitcoin
17:56:08jgarzik:s/unspendable/unspent/ er
17:56:55jtimon:don't know the details but that sounds much more like a sidechain than namecoin
17:57:05jtimon:namecoin is not a sidechain at all
17:58:16jgarzik:if bitcoin dies, namecoin will die, in practice.
17:58:23jgarzik:nobody will bother with it
17:58:27gmaxwell:ah, like some of the ANanti-dos tokens for holding bitcoins.
17:58:33jtimon:not necessarily, they can hardfork again
17:58:50jtimon:or maybe miners just keep mining namecoin
17:59:13jtimon:in any case, I don't like sidechain == a chain that dies with bitcoin
17:59:14jgarzik:* jgarzik won't bother repeating "theory" vs. "practice" discussion from above :)
17:59:20gmaxwell:such a system could quite easily be called a sidechain, I think, ... well excepting perhaps if it's not a chain at all! :)
17:59:51gmaxwell:Thats the kind of things I was talking about what if the peg is not 1:1. Some kind of ephemerial ownership of utxo is a kind of non 1:1 peg, a derivitave on bitcoin.
18:00:28jtimon:what if all users decide to move alll btc to a sidechain and bitcoin-the-chain dies but bitcoin-the-currency survives in the sidechain?
18:01:17Guest80999:Guest80999 is now known as BlueMatt
18:01:21gmaxwell:The "non-coercive upgrade".
18:01:54jtimon:or a scrypt sidechain, what does it have in common with namecoin?
18:02:27jtimon:I think vitalik's definition is perfectly fine
18:02:34jgarzik:To review that design for others, "ephemeral coin" was discussed on -wizards a few weeks ago. The goal is to provide a vaguely-bitmessage-like chain, to which you may post messages to various mailboxes. Entries expire after 2 weeks, or earlier if requested. The limiting factor is providing a bitcoin UTXO proof, that gives you posting rights as long as that UTXO remains unspent. If you lock-up 1.0 BTC, you get 1.0 BTC wort
18:02:34jgarzik:h of posting rights to EphemCoin chain.
18:02:39jtimon:and it doesn't include nmc
18:04:32jtimon:thank you, I'm not sure that can be considered "another chain with btc as currency" but maybe, certainly not nmc
18:05:05jgarzik: whether through mining or currency or some other factor, life & death are -- in all practicality, not theory -- linked to bitcoin main chain.
18:05:34jgarzik:My definition is both general and directly relates to _real world end results_
18:06:03jgarzik:If bitcoin ceases to function, does X also cease to function?
18:06:17jgarzik:In theory, namecoin continues. In practice, it will not.
18:06:39Taek42:jgarzik we understand where you are coming from with your definition, but it just doesn't seem to be the definition that the rest of the world uses. at least, as far as I've been able to tell
18:07:07jgarzik:Yes, the rest of the world seems to use "side chain == chain with 2-way pegging"
18:07:11jgarzik:to which I push back
18:07:58jgarzik:Further, when talking to non-programmers, you get
18:08:03jgarzik:"side chain == Blockstream product"
18:08:39jtimon: what if all users decide to move alll btc to a sidechain and bitcoin-the-chain dies but bitcoin-the-currency survives in the sidechain?
18:09:11jtimon:jgarzik vitalik's definition doesn't mean "blockstream product"
18:10:17jgarzik: Just reporting what I encounter out in the world, when talking to reporters, VCs, Bitcoin Foundation types, cryptocurrency lawyers, ...
18:11:44jtimon:why don't you push back on "side chain == Blockstream product" instead of "side chain == altchain with the same currency"
18:13:01jgarzik:I do
18:13:12jgarzik:I push back with "side chain is anything that lives & dies with bitcoin"
18:13:30jtimon: what if all users decide to move alll btc to a sidechain and bitcoin-the-chain dies but bitcoin-the-currency survives in the sidechain?
18:14:21tromp:then jeff will chant "bitcoin is dead. long live bitcoin!" :)
18:16:17jgarzik:jtimon, not worried about incredibly unlikely scenarios
18:18:11jtimon:I don't see that as extremely unlikely, it's actually a good way to deploy hardfork changes IMO
18:19:28jtimon:also your "side chain is anything that not necessarily in theory but in practice (what jgarzik considers likely to happen) lives & dies with bitcoin" leaves some 2wp chains out of the definition
18:20:48jtimon:what if freicoin becomes a sidechain to bitcoin? if bitcoin dies, the bitcoin asset in freicoin dies, the freicoin chain not necessarily
18:22:19jtimon:btw blockstream doesn't own any sidechain domain...
18:23:07tromp:in any case, there is a well defined notion of 2pw chain, and the accepted name for it is side-chain, not pegging chain (which frankly sounds awkward
18:23:43jgarzik:I will continue to disagree public RE "the accepted name"
18:24:28gmaxwell:pegging unfortunately invites the urban dictionary definition. This was pointed out to me by my SO when I was writing an abstract for a conference talk on the subject, so I've avoided using it generally.
18:24:32jtimon:well, the term was invented to mean exactly that, I don't see why we need to invent a new one now
18:24:44phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, it's really quite an unfortunate name...
18:24:48BlueMatt:pegging is also a very standard currency term
18:24:57BlueMatt:also, I enjoy having the urban dictionary definition
18:25:03BlueMatt:I mean we did go with HD wallets......................................
18:25:08jgarzik:side chain with 2-way pegging
18:25:12jgarzik:is technically accurate
18:25:15phantomcircuit:BlueMatt is just trying to trick you into googling pegging
18:25:27BlueMatt:phantomcircuit: did you not already know what pegging was?
18:25:36BlueMatt:its not a particularly strange thing
18:25:40phantomcircuit:BlueMatt, im from san francisco... yes i did
18:25:52jtimon:merged mined altcoin is a technically accurate term for nmc
18:25:59jgarzik:And yes, just mentioning "2 way pegging" brings out the twitter chuckles
18:26:00jgarzik:every time
18:26:35BlueMatt:jgarzik: why are you listening to twitter?
18:26:48jgarzik:BlueMatt, that's the social media for VCs
18:27:00gmaxwell:jgarzik: yea, there are many many many kinds of possible sidechains, thats the point. Any particular use will need to qualify what it is.
18:27:21jtimon:jgarzik can't you just invent a new term to mean what you want to mean
18:27:43gmaxwell:I think that the kind of utxo holding proof chain for anti-dos in a messaging system is a perfectly cromulent use of the word.
18:28:14jgarzik:* jgarzik googles cromulent, after wondering if it has anything to do with Conan the Barbarian
18:28:29gmaxwell:jtimon: Consider what jeff is talking about. It some external system which rate limits you based on possession of spendable bitcoins. But it is not a bidirectional peg, and yet its still currency linked.
18:29:27phantomcircuit:jgarzik, :P
18:31:30jtimon:I could decide now that coinjoin means coinjoin + coinswap + alternative pow altcoins, but why would people want to start using my new definition?
18:31:30jtimon:I don't see why would you want to include ixcoin in the term at all, it's completely unrelated
18:40:49gmaxwell:jtimon because it's _not_ a new definition. Perhaps to you, because lots of the press ran off with a narrower one, but I think myself and adam have always used a somewhat broader definition there. Keep in mind adam was originally trying to figure out how to do sidechain like things with a one-way peg.
18:41:49jtimon:but we started to use the term after 2wp to mean 2wp-chains no?
18:42:23gmaxwell:No. Go see the logs here.
18:42:57gmaxwell:Its certantly become popular in that sense, and I think that the 2wp is the most interesting class of sidechains.
18:43:46gmaxwell:The term is descriptive, it's probably been invented multiple times.
18:44:12gmaxwell:But as a descriptive term it's very general, so no shock that people reasoning from first principles may have slightly different meanings.
18:44:18jtimon:it may have been invented several times to mean different things...
18:47:16jtimon:if that's the case it's unfortunate that we used to mean 2wp
19:02:23jgarzik:RE "pegging" & Beavis + Butthead snortles
19:02:30jgarzik:"transitive chain"?
19:02:55jgarzik:BiDi chain?
19:07:58gmaxwell:I was thinking BiDi while typing the above, so a vote for that. "Transitive currency"
19:13:35Eliel:ok, so this time the shed is already painted and we're arguing about what to name the colors :)
19:23:29jtimon:was there any other use for the term sidechain before 2wp?
19:23:52sipa:i've used it to mean "reorganized bitcoin main chain branch"
19:25:05jtimon:oh, ic
19:26:50jtimon:not that I dislike it, but as Eliel says, I would say the bike is already painted
19:28:36sipa:s/bike/shed/ :)
19:30:03jtimon:yeah, whatever
19:31:08jtimon:parkinson's would not complain about that small detail (s/bike/shed/) ;)
19:31:14jgarzik:We paint sheds -and- bikes on this channel.
19:31:54sipa:jtimon: yeah, it was an attempted QED
19:39:50zooko:zooko is now known as zookotest
19:39:58zookotest:zookotest is now known as zooko
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20:26:35Taek42:Why is the difficulty adjusted every 2016 blocks instead of every block? I would think that smooth adjustments would be better.
20:28:18jtimon:this difficulty filter is working well with bitcoin
20:29:08Taek42:I'm not saying it's an issue, I'm just wondering if there's a specific reason that a non-smooth function was chosen
20:29:31jtimon:freicoin had much more difficulty variance (like +-1000% in hours) and we had to hardfork to a more dynamic one that changes diff every 9 blocks
20:30:07Eliel:Taek42: I'm not sure about the reasoning but some altcoins who're trying different difficulty algorithms, some of them every block have suffered attacks due to them.
20:30:20tacotime:per block works ok depending on how you do it.
20:30:28jtimon:bitcoin's filter probably works better than freicoin's with a stable hashrate
20:30:47tacotime:ppc uses exponentially weight average of 10 days or something, monero uses median of 720 blocks
20:31:13Taek42:I thought the altcoins suffered because they didn't keep the clamp on the difficulty change tight enough - it could swing by a lot more than 4x every 14 days
20:32:04Eliel:Taek42: yes, biweekly adjustments doesn't work that well unless you're the hashrate leader.
20:32:42tacotime:yeah. alts have the multipool problem of rapidly changing hashrates.
20:33:09tacotime:if your hash rate is relatively steady it's fine.
20:33:46tacotime:but if not, it's often more profitable to switch to other coins and wait for the diff to fall, then go back to the coin when it was, and repeat.
20:34:09Eliel:rolling median sounds like it might have some benefits over biweekly though. At least on first glance.
20:34:14tacotime:this used to happen to ltc a lot before asics came out, there'd be yo-yoing difficulty.
20:35:00tacotime:Eliel: It's not a bad algorithm, just wish ours was longer than 12 h period, but we didn't set that, some cryptonote person did, and were stuck with it barring hardfork (which we may do).
20:35:21Eliel:12h period is definitely too small
20:35:24tacotime:monero's algo also truncates ~20% of the outliers from the dataset to make it harder to manipulate
20:48:04helo:tacotime: how is it determined if a block is an outlier?
20:52:29tacotime:tbh i don't totally follow the algo that was written by CN
20:53:48tacotime:DIFFICULTY_CUT is 60, DIFFICULTY_WINDOW is 720
20:54:50tacotime:it kinda looks like it's by timestamp outlier
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