05:50:23fluffypony:[nsh]: a wise choice
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15:09:02fluffypony:phantomcircuit / brisque (for your viewing pleasure when you're both around) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=816141.0
15:14:20Happzz:that chanserv spam when the bouncer reconnects
15:14:29Happzz:UP UP
15:14:31Happzz:sup fluffypony
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16:45:41tacotime:that didn't take long.
16:46:18tacotime:has anyone actually reviewed "darksend" since it was foss'd?
17:08:54gmaxwell:I had no idea they did.
17:32:15andytoshi:there were some replies to https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29471/is-there-any-true-anonymous-cryptocurrencies hinting that they had/were going to
17:58:07gmaxwell:oh I knew they'd been saying they were going to.
18:00:24wumpus:tacotime: where is the code?
18:02:50tacotime:good question
18:04:30tacotime:1800 lines nnn
18:11:43tacotime:As near as I can tell you just denominate funds and send it to a node who trust will mix up your outputs into a transaction in another node while preserving destinations locally, then rinse and repeat.
19:46:12kanzure:i wonder if you could have a scheme where each transaction required a ledger lock
19:46:59kanzure:it would be very slow and not do thousands of transactions per second, but the other properties might be interesting
19:55:02Taek42:what do you mean by ledger lock?
19:58:27helo:i can't think of the ledger being locked between blocks any more than it already is
19:59:33helo:oh, between transactions... well they are applied to the utxo in sequence, so it's locked too
20:06:08kanzure:oops, i should have explicitly said a non-bitcoin scheme
20:42:10kanzure:ah it wouldn't work because you would have to negotiate who gets the lock, to add a transaction each time, and that is easy to attack, even if all of the other problems are solved (or worth solving)
21:01:04petertodd:gmaxwell: that writeup is way out of date - hub-and-spoke micropayment channels make that stuff mostly obsolete
21:03:33moa:petertodd: i've been wondering if chaum blinded tokens could be issued by a notary using (micro)-payment channels, nLockTime, in tranches as needed etc?
21:04:06petertodd:moa: they can be, although your blinded privacy is les unless you hold the token for awhile to get a good k-anonymity set
21:04:34moa:but still a little bit awesome
21:09:05petertodd:moa: yup, it's a strict improvement in every case as far as I can tell
21:11:31moa:and could be workarounds for getting a good anonymity set longer term I suspect?
21:13:02moa:i mean good anonymity faster ...
21:13:36petertodd:moa: yeah, you can do a coinjoin like scheme where you wait for someone else to get a token at the same time, ensuring your k-anonymity set is at least 2
21:22:58zwischenzug2:zwischenzug2 is now known as zwischenzug
21:44:48dgenr8:kanzure: that's like suggesting the whole internet should be one big token-ring network'
21:50:59gmaxwell:petertodd: yea, actually I just wanted a citation for extended security techniques for moderately trusted agents. I agree that just for that application micropayment channel networks add a whole bunch.
21:51:21gmaxwell:So I think it was good for what I was looking for.
21:51:24petertodd:gmaxwell: cool
21:52:06amiller_:petertodd, whats hub and spoke microchannels
21:52:12amiller_:micropayment channels
21:52:44petertodd:amiller_: have a hub that has u-payment channels between it and others, then you can send money to anyone connected to the hub instantly and w/o trusting the hub with the money
21:53:43amiller_:petertodd, link to description or something?
21:53:57amiller_:i guess this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=438726.0
21:54:03petertodd:amiller_: I'm not sure that anyone has written up a description - I thought someone did but turns out I was wrong
21:54:11petertodd:I can write one up for the -dev list - it's not my idea
21:54:23amiller_:whose is it
21:54:30amiller_:also, i don't see how this avoids having to trust the hub
21:54:37amiller_:or having to trust the union of all the people connected
21:54:45petertodd:amiller_: well, you trust the hub with a few pennies at a time, but so what if the hub steals that?
21:55:17gmaxwell:I dunno, it's likely many people independantly invented it, it's 'obvious' once you have micropayment channels.
21:55:30petertodd:gmaxwell: exactly
21:55:37amiller_:well tbh there are a lot of cases where you care about provisioning and having a middle party ruin your service isn't great
21:56:05petertodd:amiller_: if they ruin things, move to another hub
21:56:08amiller_:besides that though, i still don't understand how you aren't trusting someone more than in ordinary micropyament
21:56:23amiller_:petertodd, well you can't becuase you have already bundled up your capital and have to wait for the timelock to expire
21:57:00amiller_:(the micropayment hubs are in collusion with the payday advance places)
21:57:07petertodd:amiller_: so? they ruin your day, and you wait x hours/days for the locktime to expire - that's not a big deal
21:57:16gmaxwell:amiller_: say I have a micropayment channel open to petertodd (So I have some escrowed 2 of 2 funds with refunds setup), petertodd has a channel to you. We can just release from the channels a small amount at a time. And indeed, there is a liquidity freeze attack.
21:57:16petertodd:people use 100% trusting wallets all the time
21:59:04gmaxwell:if you like, the 'hub' itself could be a federation. e.g. a 3 of 5 multisigner... which can help make it more fault tolerant.
21:59:31moa:it's not mush different than a hotel puttinng a block on some of your fund while you stay there ... you just set aside that much as "cash purse" or whatever
22:01:13moa:and yes it is a better situation than 100% server-side wallets
22:01:31moa:partial timelocked trust
22:01:55moa:with side effect of strong anonymity if desired ... and off-chain
22:30:34moa:"blinding notary payment wheels" (hub-spoke)
23:15:05moa:btc accepted?
23:18:12sipa:moa: not here
23:32:55moa:sipa: noted