00:40:48Taek:if we ended up colonizing Mars, would Bitcoin be forced to stay on Earth?
00:41:03Taek:10 minute block time would stop being sufficient I imagine
00:41:17Taek:esp. if we got to the further planets, or some asteroids, etc.
00:47:37kanzure:colonization is not necessary to ask that sort of question (imagine distant non-colonization-reated equipment)
00:50:18amiller:sometimes mars is within 10 minutes away
00:50:20amiller:other times not
00:52:16kanzure:instead of having different currencies for ever-expanding light-spheres it would be nice to have some sort of matrioshka shell thing that was built for the concept of a larger sphere of payments that take (extremely) longer to confirm
00:54:11kanzure:oh right, that doesn't work for the same reasons it didn't work last week and the week before that.
00:55:40Taek:It's interesting to think of how that could be applied on Earth today
00:56:06Taek:Have different spheres for each continent, country, town
00:56:22Taek:each with a substantially quicker block time than the last
00:56:43kanzure:wont work because you can double spend in another "town" level at the same time
00:56:55Taek:"Chicago experiencing a 51% attack all week"
00:57:18Taek:kanzure you'd probably need coins that are only useful in a particular sphere
00:57:46Taek:eg if you are able to spend coins in chicago, then NYC won't recognize them as in a NYC wallet
00:58:10Taek:other problems aside, ofc
01:02:54amiller:i think there's a kind of proof of work you can do if you are within a tiny lightsphere
01:02:57amiller:rather than far apart
01:03:47amiller:if there's a group of parties that has a really large hashpower among them, but the distribution of that hashpower is sufficiently distributed that like there's some 30% of it that's a minimum light distance away from some other 30%
01:04:00amiller:then they can't build sequential proofs of work bigger than that
01:04:27amiller:so if you had optimal fiber optic peering or something you could build a region local proof of work that couldn't be attacked even by a more powerful miner as long as the more powerful miner is far away
01:05:36gmaxwell:amiller: the lightsphere limited one doesn't work for offline parties. So peopel can't easily come and leave from the system.
01:07:32amiller:i think it does
01:07:58amiller:it's like the difference between a sequentially-hard proof of work and one like bitcoin.
01:08:09kanzure:is there an equivalent localized version of the problem of speed of light constraints? like, nodes aready don't get information instantly anyway, as they would due to light delay..
01:08:18amiller:you can do an offline-checkable proof of "concentrated work"
01:08:50gmaxwell:amiller: it doesn't. say there are a bunch of parties mining in your lightsphere but you're not paying attention. Then later people from mars do ton of mining and send a time delayed alternative history. Then an evil group of local martians continue that one. Now you join the scene, how can you distinguish these two histories? one which was forged far away?
01:11:57kanzure:*related (not reated)
01:13:28amiller:hrm. maybe you can interact *now* with the local chain and quickly figure out that's one's more current than the other
01:13:57gmaxwell:amiller: sure but they're both being run locally now "local martians". But the far away one has lots more work (martian computers) before you joined.
01:14:12gmaxwell:So it looks to you like the real chain is the imposter: less work, and both are local.
01:14:27amiller:so the martians did a lot of work when they were on mars, but now they've landed and they're your neighbors and you can'ttell which one was there the whole time
01:14:38amiller:that's a neat problem good point
01:16:30kanzure:18:14 < fenn> it would take a long time to agree on a price for anything
01:16:34gmaxwell:I think it's related to some of the POS simulation problems.
01:16:36kanzure:18:16 < fenn> no shipping, this is an information-only product
01:17:49kanzure:so trade might be off limits, but maybe there would be some proof system for "locking" funds in one region, but making them available in another?
01:18:49kanzure:some of this has to be constrained by the nature of interstellar existence anyway, trade isn't one-to-one with current concepts i imagine
01:19:58kanzure:if you pay someone a year away to give you data (if you could), it would take a year (at minimum) for an alert of the payment to reach them, and then some amount of time for data to get back to you (unless it was local and encrypted already?)
01:21:04kanzure:18:19 < fenn> you could send it to a local escrow agent who tell his partner on alpha centauri to forward alphacoins to your seller
01:21:08kanzure:18:20 < fenn> problem is alpha escrow services gets screwed when the exchange rate changes
01:24:47kanzure:what does orion's arm have to say about this
01:27:19kanzure::( they took the lazy path http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/537285c1964e8
03:12:45Eliel:synereo seems like an interesting idea. That is, combining a social network with a monetary system. They appear to intend to use a miner based system, however, I started wondering if it might be usable to piggyback timestamping to people's status updates. The system naturally has social (trust) network links included.
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12:35:36Taek:amiller, I could be mis-thinking, but the difficulty raising attack will still take 10^400 tries to succeed on Bitcoin.
12:35:54Taek:It's just that if you care about reverting to any point instead of to a specific point, each try takes the same amount of time
12:36:22Taek:where if you are trying to revert to a specific point, each try takes exponentially more time than the previous
12:38:37Taek:Though I'm realizing I did the probability wrong. It's probably not as severe as 10^400 tries
12:41:33Taek:The DRA is more interesting in the specific point case
12:42:09Taek:We already know that an attacker with 'p' mining power can do a double spend of length 6 with a probability of 1 if they try enough times
12:42:29Taek:Each time the attacker tries, they have p^6 chance of success
12:42:40Taek:even without using a DRA
12:43:11Taek:But if the attacker keeps trying to revert to the same point, the probability falls off exponentially as they fall behind
12:43:38Taek:with the DRA though, they can keep a constant probability of reverting to the same point, regardless of how far they fall behind
12:45:49Taek:The tradeoff being exponenetial time investment
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