00:00:28	Guest30505:	Guest30505 is now known as maaku
00:14:35	gmaxwell:	Some NXT jackass on bct tech pumping NXT and his patent pending instant transaction magic is unduely irritating me, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737836.msg9406536#msg9406536
00:18:46	BlueMatt:	gmaxwell: the best response is to ignore
00:18:51	BlueMatt:	(always)
00:19:33	kefkius:	I like your responses
00:22:14	BlueMatt:	gmaxwell: also, just lock the thread
00:22:27	BlueMatt:	(or ban, that is always easy)
00:24:00	gmaxwell:	yea, I've been temped to just deleted any point that plugs some altcoin without saying something technical... In this case (see my first response) I foolishly didn't because I thought I could impress on him the stupidity of that route.
00:24:26	gmaxwell:	his later POS comments made it clear that he was clueless so the discussion was probably pointless.
00:32:45	kefkius:	It's a shame there can't be reasonable altcoin discussion
00:34:28	BlueMatt:	there can be reasonable altcoin discussion, probalem is no altcoins are currently reasonable (read: technically competent)
00:34:37	BlueMatt:	well, ok, only a few are, but those usually have reasonable discussion :)
01:03:26	midnightmagic:	lol. now he's going to try to punish you by doing what he intended to do to begin with. well. I guess it's your fault then if he makes waves that we all have to deal with.
01:08:24	midnightmagic:	"You brought this on yourself. You could've been nice to me. Instead you made me angry. Now I'm going to punish everyone." Where have I heard that before.. Oh yeah: http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/Sculpt-Double/Syndrome/Syndrome_0018.jpg
01:25:02	wyager:	wyager has left #bitcoin-wizards
01:35:10	gmaxwell:	sipa: LOLOLOL
01:35:12	gmaxwell:	sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=840252.0
01:48:47	gmaxwell:	gah, bad idea of breaking pooling entirely seems like it's going to repeat monthly forever now http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0ria/achieving_consensus_in_distributed_systems_that/
03:28:03	Taek:	"Breaking pooling entirely (which has been proposed and debunked many times) would have enormously bad ramifications since then the easiest (any perhaps only) way to economically participate would be via hosted mining, which is far more damaging than pooling."
03:28:20	Taek:	I'm assuming this is only referring to situations where 1 miner gets paid every 10 minutes?
03:32:12	gmaxwell:	Taek: Anything that makes multiple miners get paid is _some_ form of pooling. E.g. p2pool.
03:32:32	gmaxwell:	(and what that post suggests would generally make all forms of pooling that I've seen infeasable)
03:34:48	Taek:	ah. broader definition of pool than I had interpreted
03:36:31	gmaxwell:	well I really mean all schemes that would be broken by the anti-pooling stuff being discussed. It breaks every kind of pooling I've seen... (e.g. you can try to make pooling irrelevant but at huge efficiency costs) but it doesn't break hosted mining.
03:37:23	gmaxwell:	Amiller has paper on breaking both pooling and hosted mining; but it doesn't break the latter in the real world, at least not currently, because no one seems to care if hosted mining can rob them or not.
03:38:23	gmaxwell:	(Amiller's system makes it so hosted mining can steal some of the income without being caught. ... but in practice today all hosted mining can steal income because none of their customers are interested in recieving proof that they're not... and it remains profitable)
04:47:43	Meisterbrau:	http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/pol/4742269587.html
04:54:40	phantomcircuit:	[03:37:23] Amiller has paper on breaking both pooling and hosted mining; but it doesn't break the latter in the real world, at least not currently, because no one seems to care if hosted mining can rob them or not.
04:54:45	phantomcircuit:	i still dont understand why not
04:55:01	phantomcircuit:	it's relatively easy to prove
04:55:13	phantomcircuit:	but virtually nobody cares
04:56:33	Taek:	Most of the real world operates under assumptions of trust
04:57:19	Taek:	I would be surprised if more than a few % of people use Coinbase's multisig feature
04:58:23	phantomcircuit:	true
05:04:51	devrandom:	kanzure: Saturn's Brood by Alastair Reynolds has an interesting story about interstellar slow money vs local fast money... not sure how plausible the econ / crypto is
05:52:30	GnarSith:	yeah. but it's Neptune's Brood by Charles Stross
05:59:23	QuantumQrack:	Although Alistair Reynolds is a great author as well. :-)
06:43:19	gandalf:	hey super3 you online?
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18:53:51	super3:	yes?
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21:47:16	nsh:	any thoughts in whether blockchain technology might be (with appropriate modifications, caveats, etc.) useful as a more secure replacement for existing distributed routing information state protocols
21:47:31	nsh:	(specifically BGP, which is kinda the rubber band holding the internet together)
21:49:40	phantomcircuit:	nsh, maybe, but there are some pretty trivial intermediary steps that nobody has yet to take
21:49:44	phantomcircuit:	so i cant see that happening
21:50:21	nsh:	* nsh nods
21:58:31	phantomcircuit:	nsh, although actually blockchain based ip allocation isn't crazy
21:58:49	phantomcircuit:	digitial ownership and meaningful ownership being one an dthe same
21:58:55	nsh:	* nsh nods
21:59:54	nsh:	i think gmaxwell mentioned that he'd previously discussed the idea of blockchain-controlled membership in distributed hash tables with cjd
22:00:03	nsh:	but i'm not sure of any specifics
22:01:10	moa:	cjdns was investigating namecoin integration at some point
22:02:15	nsh:	perhaps that could be a project incubated through sidechains
22:15:16	kanzure:	"if you can't fit a usable routing table in a few megabytes at *most*, then you won't be able to deliver traffic, *period*."
22:15:24	kanzure:	"right now, the global BGP routing table fits in something like 1 MiB, and that's large enough that it causes problems for some systems"
22:15:48	kanzure:	"the big problem with non-hierarchical addressing is that you have to remember that intermediate routers are *very* dumb and *very* memory constrained"
22:16:33	kanzure:	"you'd be better off running the crypto system alongside traditional addressing"
22:17:03	kanzure:	(these quotes are from 2014-08-27)
22:18:51	nsh:	yeah, well, "better off" is currently a function of the grace and favour of a large and growing number of people with a practical ability to take away all the nice things at any point if they are sufficiently motivated
22:19:24	nsh:	i'm not sure that's any way to run a civilization
22:20:20	kanzure:	well, what would you actually want in the route table itself
22:21:37	phantomcircuit:	moa, yes and when he did that he completely broke the security model in like a day....
22:22:40	nsh:	kanzure, that's kinda independent of the utility of having strong security guarantees about the authority of updates
22:22:41	kanzure:	oh, oops, i was the one who brought up the route table stuff.
22:22:49	phantomcircuit:	kanzure, ahahaha
22:22:51	kanzure:	route tables don't verify itself or its peers
22:22:51	phantomcircuit:	lol
22:23:58	phantomcircuit:	kanzure, you validate the routing info and then load the validated routing table
22:24:11	kanzure:	don't peers discover their own routes in the network?
22:24:21	kanzure:	"there's a sysctl called "log_martians" in the net config which causes a kernel message whenever a packet comes in from an interface that it shouldn't according to the routing table, but that's pretty much it"
22:25:11	phantomcircuit:	kanzure, iirc routes are only dont like that outside of the core
22:25:32	phantomcircuit:	there's apparently a bunch of routers that have something very close to the entire global ip space explicitly routed
22:26:33	kanzure:	"yeah anybody who is participating in the backbone has what amounts to a global routing table which is negotiated and shared over BGP"
22:26:45	kanzure:	i hate playing irc relay, people should just agree on a channel and stick to it
22:27:03	kanzure:	"note that misconfigured/malicious peers can and do fuck with BGP on occasion"
22:28:53	kanzure:	"the way that backbone routers are configured is sort of only tangentially related to how near-endpoint routers are configured"
22:39:49	nsh:	"A major update to BGP would be required to remediate those issues and offer an adequate level of protection against sophisticated BGP attacks. RFC 4278, a maturity study of BGP security mechanisms, considers the marginal benefit of such schemes in this situation would be low, and not worth the transition effort. " -- https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/56069/what-security-mechanisms-are-used-in-bgp-and-why-do-they-fail
22:41:43	BlueMatt:	ie "The NSA looked at BGPSEC and decided that it would hurt their ability to steal everyon'e traffic at will"
22:42:41	nsh:	that's what i wondered too
22:43:12	kanzure:	how many privacy points would that net everyone in the battle against the nsa? just curious in an estimate
22:43:41	BlueMatt:	practically, incredibly few
22:43:54	nsh:	this is the major global policy problem we're facing: the rules and governance of digital communications networks are becoming the rules and governance of civilization, and the current stakeholders are starting to be seen to have interests at conflict with security, robustness and equal franchise
22:43:56	BlueMatt:	but, practically, any one thing nets incredibly few points against the nsa
22:44:07	nsh:	that's probably the kind of problem humanity should be putting a lot of effort into solving
22:44:53	nsh:	because if it's left to crazy people in pajamas to try and fix it, you can expect mixed results
22:45:21	nsh:	and the crazy people in pajamas have limited patience
22:45:22	moa:	what's zuckerberg got to do with it?
22:45:25	nsh:	* nsh smiles
22:45:33	GnarSith:	wait. arent we the crazy people in pajamas?
22:45:43	nsh:	no, we're the crazy people in robes and hats
22:45:52	nsh:	there's a limited crossover
22:45:57	GnarSith:	hehe
22:47:40	BlueMatt:	"He received 2007 National Computer Systems Security Award by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the National Security Agency (NSA)."
22:47:43	BlueMatt:	lol, thats an oxymoron
22:47:57	BlueMatt:	"Security Award"..."NSA" do not belong in the same sentence
22:48:22	BlueMatt:	(thats the author of the very outdated rfc which was referenced claiming bgp doesnt need security)
22:48:40	GnarSith:	winner of undisclocable award for reasons of security and therefore insecurity
22:54:02	moa:	so is this the problem BitPay IP protocol layer is going to solve?
22:55:11	BlueMatt:	lol, no
22:55:27	BlueMatt:	that thing is not an ip layer
22:56:16	moa:	the coindesk article made it sound awesome
22:56:27	BlueMatt:	coindesk articles make everything sound awesome
22:56:29	moa:	not that i bothered lookinng any further
22:56:32	BlueMatt:	even broken technobabble
22:56:36	moa:	lol
22:57:13	justanotheruser:	bitpay IP protocol layer??
22:57:22	BlueMatt:	https://github.com/bitpay/foxtrot
22:57:24	moa:	B2B/IP
22:57:40	kanzure:	i thought it was just established that it was not an ip layer -_-
22:58:15	justanotheruser:	I know, I wanted to know what he was referring to though
22:58:36	moa:	the co CEO made some noises to that effect ...
22:58:56	moa:	but colour me skeptical, although good on them for having a go
22:59:32	BlueMatt:	foxtrot scales oppositely from what you need in the neternet...
22:59:45	moa:	P2PSEC
22:59:47	BlueMatt:	so, while a potentially cool project as they progress, its not an ip replacement
23:00:08	justanotheruser:	without looking at the source, it seems to imply they have bitcoins network topology
23:00:22	moa:	he mentioned p2p networks generally
23:00:46	moa:	plus btc-based encryption
23:00:47	kanzure:	this place is such a circuit
23:00:50	kanzure:	circus.
23:00:57	BlueMatt:	my understanding: gian p2p network where you peer with whoever you want, to initiate a connection, you flood the entire network looking for the pubkey of your target, if it comes back you establish a circuit, ala networking pre-ip
23:01:13	justanotheruser:	oh
23:01:14	BlueMatt:	each node/router keeps state for each connection which is traversing it, ie....it doesnt scale
23:01:28	BlueMatt:	not to mention the scaling of flooding the network looking for your target pubkey
23:03:16	justanotheruser:	so I only have to check 1 billion IP addresses then
23:05:12	woah:	BlueMatt I'm into it
23:05:23	gmaxwell:	Anyone else here at all familar with Frama C?
23:05:37	nsh:	.wik Frama C
23:05:39	yoleaux:	"Frama-C stands for Framework for Modular Analysis of C programs. Frama-C is a set of interoperable program analyzers for C programs. Frama-C has been developed by Commissariat à l'Énergie Atomique et aux Énergies Alternatives and Inria. Frama-C enables the analysis of C programs without executing them." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frama-C
23:05:59	nsh:	(by way of answering 'no' )
23:06:34	BlueMatt:	gmaxwell: static analysis framework?
23:08:19	gmaxwell:	BlueMatt: yea, it's pretty useful... though often it gets lost on non-trivial functions or trying to prove things more complex than absence of arith overflow
23:08:41	BlueMatt:	ew
23:08:42	BlueMatt:	w
23:10:34	gmaxwell:	It seemed to me that frama c would actually have a fighting chance of proving this change computes the same thing: https://github.com/peterdettman/secp256k1/commit/c7b87a855e9684b8e5858e896057005709bc26c6 so if someone else around here was familar with it I was going to suggest they give it a shot.
23:11:03	gmaxwell:	(e.g. prove they compute the same thing by just making a function with a copy of the new and old verisons and adding assertions that the results from both are the same)
23:15:11	sipa:	i believe they are, but there is no actual requirement that they are identical
23:15:23	sipa:	there can be multiple representations for the output that are identical
23:16:04	gmaxwell:	well the change shouldn't have resulted in them being non-identical, at least.
23:19:25	gmaxwell:	sipa: here is the paper I mentioned before about correctness proofs for a curve25519 implementation: http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~bywang/papers/ccs14.pdf
23:24:47	gmaxwell:	It's interesting that it notes a older version of the software was incorrect... https://cryptojedi.org/crypto/#ed25519
23:25:28	gmaxwell:	I believe I'd not been aware of that previously. (uh and now wonder if there is code I'm responsible for shipped with that bug in it. :( )
23:29:26	nsh:	hopefully it wouldn't have had a high impact (if the probability of being triggered was low)
23:29:40	nsh:	still not ideal though, i suppose
23:29:56	phantomcircuit:	definitions of low in testing might not match those in production
23:30:10	nsh:	* nsh smiles
23:36:06	samson2:	samson2 is now known as samson_
23:38:08	gmaxwell:	andytoshi: heh. keegan is now wishlisting someone to do rust extractions for coq: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/18496
23:40:55	andytoshi:	oooh
23:41:10	andytoshi:	* andytoshi wishes for another lifetime to work on that
23:41:48	nsh:	* nsh expresses approval