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08:31:15gmaxwell:The recently chartered TCPINC (increased security) working group will be meeting at 0900 in the morning (hawaii time, gmt-10); discussed will be TCPcrypt (which is a really awesome and simple extension to tcp to add oppturnistic encryption) ... and a couple other proposals to not use that and instead use TLS, which I think are pretty bad ... because TLS.
08:33:05gmaxwell:https://tools.ietf.org/wg/tcpinc/agenda is the agenda (and links to the drafts and list archive), if you'd like to listen/participate there is a jabber chat rppm at tcpinc@jabber.ietf.org (though if you're going to participate you shoul checkout the agenda and the drafts: https://tools.ietf.org/wg/tcpinc/agenda ) because the proposers of TCPcrypt are not very IETF savvy and the people pushing the TLS alternatives are very ietf ...
08:33:11gmaxwell:... savvy; I expect it to get steamrolled pretty hard.
08:35:44gmaxwell:May be of some interest to folks around here.
08:38:20phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, tls for opportunistic encryption of tcp?
08:38:22phantomcircuit:lol wat
08:40:49gmaxwell:yea, the proposal to use TLS is (IMO) daft, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rescorla-tcpinc-tls-option-01
08:43:45gmaxwell:People bitch that e.g. protocols from SDOs are sabotaged.... but if you don't show up to participate, ... well.. it's pretty easy to do so.
08:45:01phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, there is a picture of a rotting foot in that presentation
08:46:33gmaxwell:I think it's a foot-gunned foot.
08:46:50phantomcircuit:come on
08:47:07gmaxwell:also.. pictures in an ietf presentation? man. ietf presentations should almost never have pictures. This is what I mean that the proposers are not that expirenced. (compare to the chair slides)
08:48:00gmaxwell:in any case, remote participants in the IETF are in-theory equal to people locally (clue weighed of course), I'm not one to stack rooms by calling for lots of clueless people; but I do think this is an area with lots of leverage for improving the internet; and one where lots of people who are regulars in _this_ room are qualified to have opinions.
09:01:58phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, do you have a list of improvements to for merkle trees somewhere? (outside your head of course)
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09:11:46phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, looks pretty standard except for perturbing an internal node differently from a leaf
09:19:11phantomcircuit:ha oops current merkle tree code is wrong
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13:42:43petertod1:phantomcircuit: fwiw I wound up doing a bit of yak shaving and making that merbinner tree stuff into a bit of a serialization library; gonna have to write up a solid merkle tree implementation for it before long
13:43:21petertod1:phantomcircuit: well, actually, by yak shaving, I mean there's like a whole herd of very pissed off yaks out there right now...
13:47:22petertod1:gmaxwell: oh, that's neat, just noticed rfc6962's algorithm is basically identical to my MMR construction, though I think they have a much better definition
13:50:01petertod1:phantomcircuit: note too how in general you can always take hash functions and generalize them to summation functions if you want the merkle-summed version of an algorithm
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15:53:23kanzure:not quite directly applicable to bitcoin, but makes me think: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2//Predicting%20change%20propagation%20in%20complex%20design.pdf
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16:52:16nsh:kanzure, paper does not summarize any findings in abstract/introduction
16:52:25nsh:presumably, nothing of value was determined
16:53:34kanzure:oh sure, you won't really regret not reading it
17:10:28nsh:* nsh nods
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18:11:23maaku:"In conclusion, we wasted 15 minutes of your valuable time in reading this paper."
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22:32:22sipa:maaku: ?
22:33:45maaku:sipa: joking off of presumably, nothing of value was determined
22:43:02kanzure:reading papers is so fiat, obviously the right thing to do is to use induction and skip the whole thing
22:44:04kanzure:er, or inference.