00:03:38phantomcircuit:petertodd, also, why bother with the key/value seems like the key alone would be sufficient
00:03:46phantomcircuit:wait no
00:03:55phantomcircuit:key/value is useful
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14:06:21petertodd:phantomcircuit: re: proofmarshall, needed a serialization/deserialization library for cryptographic proofs; existing stuff like protocol buffers simply ignores the needs of deterministic hashing, among other things
14:07:20petertodd:phantomcircuit: the proofmarshal repo is just the subtree of my python-smartcolors repo sliced out for early publication; it's not very useful right now
14:17:03gavinandresen:go1111111: I think Vitalik’s exponential subjective scoring might be brilliant. I’m thinking through a similar idea.
14:18:12andytoshi:posted on schneier's blog https://medium.com/stanford-select/keeping-secrets-84a7697bf89f
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20:08:30NewLiberty:I'm somewhat less enamoured of vitaliks Hypercube Scalability due to the dependance on merge mining for security which provides little actual security for individual dapps. (miners can attack one while mining all others with very little opportunity cost)
20:09:30helo:have any of these oddball ideas of vitalik's held any water?
20:11:30helo:complicated enough to avoid dismissal by the average user
20:13:39pigeons:helo: schellingcoin: NO, futurarchy: NO, dagger POW: NO, slasher pos: i wouldnt know, i'd guess no
20:14:03kanzure:is that a list of his previous proposals?
20:14:14pigeons:the ones i remember as being obviously unworkable
20:14:37helo:does he ever retract the ideas, or just move onto something else that nobody listening within two degrees has the ability to critique?
20:15:01pigeons:he admits the flaws and says the next iteration is now awesome
20:15:21helo:so he makes them more complicated
20:15:29NewLiberty:The Merkle-Patricia tree is pretty cool
20:16:23sipa:the one alan reiner came up with, or the one by michael gronager, or the one by mark friedenbach, or the one by answer miller?
20:16:44sipa:helo: it's called proof-of-review :)
20:16:59phantomcircuit:NewLiberty, very little? as implemented all current merged mined coins can be attacked with virtually no opportunity cost or consequence
20:17:00sipa:helo: complicate the proposal until new reviewer can find a flaw anymore
20:17:17sipa:*no reviewer
20:17:18helo:it's too easy :/
20:17:37phantomcircuit:sipa, his plan is the same as always
20:17:45phantomcircuit:iterate until reviewers get tired of reviewing
20:18:17NewLiberty:ok maybe very little > virtually none
20:18:35NewLiberty:but I think we agree anyhow
20:19:15phantomcircuit:at this point he's been wrong so many times
20:19:24phantomcircuit:i think the burden of proof should be on him to show that it's right
20:20:01kanzure:i'm not sure how to fix reviewer exhaustion attacks like that
20:20:08kanzure:because even if you demand payment, he can pay.....
20:20:46kanzure:(and payment doesn't necessarily fix the actual exhaustion)
20:23:02kanzure:it could be something like, "if none of the mental thinking that went into generating the prior reviews was acknowledged and incorporated into this latest iteration, then the payment should be order-of-magnitude larger for wasting the reviewer's time" but there's no simple way to computationally show this violation has happened
20:23:05gmaxwell:Whats odd to me is that a lot of these proposals are old and already abandoned. He never seems to cite his sources.
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20:24:19kanzure:(of course, i'm talking about the general case, and not vbuterin specifically)
20:24:39phantomcircuit:i would say charge for reviews but then he'd abuse them
20:24:50phantomcircuit:maybe charge for private reviews
20:25:00gmaxwell:Sure, its not unique there... though most places doing this are easier to exclude on the basis of a complete absense of saying anything technical at all.
20:25:10kanzure:you should just skip that step and have him pay for design work instead
20:25:20NewLiberty:require academic rigor before review...
20:25:44kanzure:academic rigor like spoofing sources or spinning a web of self-cites?
20:26:17gmaxwell:There certantly has been a fair amount of design-by-tournament; but annoyingly behaving in a way that discourages that-- e.g. not expending a lot of time to critique random ideas peopel show up with-- has hurt the level of discussion around here.
20:27:22kanzure:oops, i also should have tacked on a disclaimer with my last message as well (wasn't talking about vbuterin, just a well-known way of spoofing academic rigor)
20:27:35helo:despite some pretty heroic efforts, there just aren't enough reviewers
20:28:12fenn:nobody's getting paid to review papers
20:28:26gmaxwell:it's more than that... it's incredibly important to reduce anything in this space to a maximally simple construction; because too complex just means unreviable even if you have a bunch of reviewers.
20:28:37kanzure:fenn: he recently acquired 30k BTC, so he could just pay forever and still waste everyone's time
20:31:11NewLiberty:Measuring "too complex" is the trick. Everything in one's own mind seems simple. Need more 5 yr olds to explain things to for checking this.
20:32:08fenn:kolmogorov complexity is not perfect but at least measurable
20:32:37gmaxwell:NewLiberty: I'm not sure that thats actually been a problem. I think a lot of people in this space are not even trying / don't actually see the issue.
20:33:32tromp_:fenn: kolmogorov complexity can only be upperbounded
20:33:58tromp_:fenn: on all but a finite number of strings
20:34:45NewLiberty:The problem of "too much to do and not enough people that can" is well understood. With a complexity metric based reviewer cost, at least there might be some feedback.
20:35:51NewLiberty:The "not enough people that can" is what gives you a defacto pass on core dev / blockstream conflict of interest issues.
20:36:18phantomcircuit:NewLiberty, there really isn't a conflict
20:37:58NewLiberty:There is, but this isn't really the place for that discussion.
20:52:59fenn:does it make sense to establish a "bitcoin university" loosely following the academic model of peer review, classes, original research?
22:10:02teaspoon:hi everyone, I wanted to ask about the capabilities of the protocol, people talk about time delayed payment… so can I set up an address where in a year's time the funds will be sent to another address?
22:10:20sipa:#bitcoin please
22:11:12Luke-Jr:felt like a -wizards thing to me, since it'd need an OP_MATURITYVERIFY
22:11:57teaspoon:oh, so this is the place to ask?
22:12:14teaspoon:I'm a bitcoin protocol noob but still want to understand what's possible
22:12:20Luke-Jr:teaspoon: not if sipa asks you to keep it in #Bitcoin
22:12:23teaspoon:or what might be possible in the future
22:12:31teaspoon:ahh ok, he is mod?
22:12:36teaspoon:no problem then
22:13:01sipa:sorry, i may have misunderstood, but the question sounded to me like you didn't really understand the protocol, in which case this is not the place to learn
22:13:35Luke-Jr:teaspoon: more importantly, he is liable to leave if he thinks the topic is lame and he's intelligent enough that we want him around :p
22:14:12teaspoon:you are correct, I don't understand the protocol in depth only at a functional level
22:14:24teaspoon:i.e. from a user's perspective
22:14:45Luke-Jr:a user's perspective has approximately nothing in common with the protocol
22:14:56Luke-Jr:so #bitcoin is probably the right place for your questions
22:15:17sipa:Luke-Jr: if at any point i choose to leave, that's just because i feel my time is better spent not following a channel, and nobody should feel bad about that :)
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