--- Log opened Thu Jan 02 00:00:47 2014
01:30 < michagogo|cloud> But why force someone who wants to mine namecoin to set up a bitcoind?
01:30 < michagogo|cloud> :-P
01:32 < justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: Are you saying they shouldn't mine bitcoin, only namecoin?
01:38 < gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: you don't have to setup a bitcoind.
01:38 < gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: just produce namecoin blocks with dummy (invalid) bitcoin parents.
01:39 < brisque> nothing really stopping there being namecoin only pools is there? just nobody would want to lose out on the BTC profit.
01:43 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: don't even need parents..
01:44 < Luke-Jr> oh
01:44 < Luke-Jr> I see
01:46 < Luke-Jr> yes, I think namecoin is vulnerable here
01:46 < Luke-Jr> I think a better solution would be to use the POW hash as the prevblock header ;)
01:47 < brisque> Luke-Jr: I've done almost no research into namecoin, does it allow for SPV clients?
01:50 < brisque> actually I can answer that one. it's a 0.7 fork so it doesn't support bloom filters, but you can still do some lite verification with the block header and merkle tree.
01:54 < michagogo|cloud> justanotheruser: I was jokingly saying, what if someone wanted to do that?
01:59 < gmaxwell> brisque: you can't really do spv name resolution with it, however.
02:00 < Luke-Jr> brisque: not even that
02:00 < Luke-Jr> what gmaxwell said
02:00 < Luke-Jr> to actually use it, you need a full client
02:00 < brisque> if there was a DNS-namecoin proxy it could prove using the merkle tree and header that the data is valid and in a block though, right?
02:01 < Luke-Jr> brisque: it can't proove  the data isn't replaced/stale
02:01 < brisque> sounds like I need to read up on it's design. that makes sense though.
02:02 < brisque> I was forgetting name resolution isn't static like a transaction is.
02:05  * andytoshi-logbot is logging
02:10 < gmaxwell> brisque: it could be made possible with some modest design changes.
02:11 < gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21995.0
02:16 < brisque> gmaxwell: that's interesting. for old blocks that would presumably get resource intensive though.
02:17 < gmaxwell> hm?
02:17 < gmaxwell> brisque: I would only expect nodes to retain the data structure as of the tip.
02:18 < gmaxwell> (to reorg they would keep undo data, like we do for blocks)
02:20 < brisque> yep, I follow.
02:20 < brisque> at this point I'm convinced that you've written a post on the forum about every topic conceivable, it's just buried in bitcointalk nonsense.
02:28 < CodeShark> yeah, agreed, brisque - it would be nice to organize all of gmaxwell's forum posts into a coherent reference :)
02:29 < CodeShark> I just don't have time nor focus to sift through all the forum crap
02:30 < brisque> CodeShark: I'd read that, maybe a coffee table book of failed altcoins too
02:33 < gmaxwell> I've actually considered hiring someone to do that.
02:34 < gmaxwell> (to go index everything I've written and make summaries)
02:35 < brisque> damn, I was getting excited for the coffee table book.
02:37 < brisque> gmaxwell: provided all of your 3000 posts aren't almost BIPs in length, I'd be happy to do that though if you wanted. they're usually quite interesting reads unto themselves.
02:39 < brisque> gmaxwell: I particularly enjoy that you used interrobangs in 2011.
02:51  * andytoshi-logbot is logging
02:52  * andytoshi will manually paste everything the logbot missed over the last hour into the logs -- this outage was (semi)planned as the logbot was getting a virtual sound card installed
02:54 < brisque> andytoshi: nothing important was said anyway, just me being impressed by gmax'wells crazy punctuation.
03:01 < BlueMatt> early beta preview: http://coingen.bluematt.me/ =D
03:01 < CodeShark> haha!
03:01 < CodeShark> nice
03:01 < brisque> BlueMatt: that's absolutely brilliant
03:02 < andytoshi> ha ha!
03:02 < brisque> BlueMatt: might want to drop the pricing if you really want to flood the market though.
03:02 < andytoshi> i love the prefilled "MagicCoin"
03:03 < BlueMatt> brisque: yea, havent fixed that up yet
03:03 < CodeShark> BlueMatt: wasn't it you just a few days ago after we talked about this who was so adamantly opposed to making it easier for people to make alt coins? :)
03:03 < CodeShark> or was that someone else?
03:04 < BlueMatt> no
03:04 < BlueMatt> I absolutely hate altcoins
03:04 < BlueMatt> hence why I built this
03:04 < brisque> BlueMatt: making it free for the no-source version and paid to remove the branding would probably be best for maximum impact, then you end up with a situation where you have people too cheap to pay for the removal of the branding being shown as such.
03:04 < BlueMatt> brisque: not sure yet...the server isnt free...
03:05 < BlueMatt> really havent decided yet
03:05 < CodeShark> you stole my idea :p
03:05 < CodeShark> j/k
03:06 < CodeShark> it was only a matter of time before it got built
03:06 < BlueMatt> plenty of people have been discussing it for a long time :P
03:06 < brisque> BlueMatt: completely up to you naturally, it would have maximum impact if you could undercut people offering this as a manual service though.
03:06 < BlueMatt> yep
03:06 < BlueMatt> yea
03:06 < andytoshi> oh god, we're gonna have people on #bitcoin asking which alt generator is the cheapest
03:06 < andytoshi> ...and people answering them
03:06 < CodeShark> yes, brace yourself
03:07 < brisque> BlueMatt: do you have an address I can throw a tip to? I'll throw you some for the effort when I'm near my cold wallet next.
03:07 < warren> brisque: there should be an option with a 100 BTC minimum to set the exchange bribe amount.
03:08 < brisque> warren: I like that too
03:10 < brisque> BlueMatt: probably needs a couple more variables now that I'm looking at the altcoin forum. starting difficulty, target time, that sort of thing.
03:11 < BlueMatt> brisque: put up a donation address
03:11 < BlueMatt> brisque: yep, its still fairly early
03:11 < CodeShark> starting difficulty should be minimum difficulty - the other parameters are starting time, block reward rule, retargetting rule, and magic bytes (which might be best to just choose randomly)
03:11 < BlueMatt> the scrypt option doesnt even work yet
03:11 < CodeShark> and while you're at it, allow dynamic linking to a block header hash function
03:12 < BlueMatt> also need to put up something like pre-mine a single block and put up a "accept anything" peer that bootstraps the initial network
03:12 < CodeShark> and make sure not to make the same mistake as litecoin and use two separate block hash functions
03:12 < CodeShark> the PoW hash function for blocks should also be used for block identifiers in the protocol
03:12 < kyrio> magic bytes need to be random
03:12 < BlueMatt> magic bytes are random
03:12 < kyrio> oh
03:12 < brisque> BlueMatt: made a tip transaction, I'll go sign it and broadcast it later.
03:12 < BlueMatt> brisque: thanks
03:12 < kyrio> >p2pool networks.py config included
03:13 < CodeShark> and just for kicks, allow them to enter arbitrary data into the genesis block coinbase transaction :)
03:13 < warren> Dual_EC_DRBG random?
03:13 < kyrio> >.1 btc
03:13 < kyrio> or maybe .25
03:13 < andytoshi> warren: yes :D
03:13 < BlueMatt> yea, mining support would be awesome
03:13 < brisque> BlueMatt: oh, sweet idea. default the POW to MD4 unless they pay
03:13 < warren> hahaha
03:13 < CodeShark> lol
03:13 < BlueMatt> heh
03:13 < brisque> maybe that's too mean.
03:14  * BlueMatt has had waay more mean thoughts while building this
03:14 < BlueMatt> just didnt do any (yet)
03:14 < brisque> for maximum impact (not necessarily profit) you'd want to make it low enough cost for people to do it on a whim.
03:14 < kyrio> yes
03:15 < kyrio> but things that will make the creator profit (like putting up the first pool) should cost him first
03:15 < brisque> for maximum profit you'd want it set up with freemium options like it is now. free unless you want a better algorithm, or the source, or the branding removed.
03:15 < kyrio> so he loses money
03:15 < petertodd> BlueMatt: I implemented CRC32 in opentimestamps fwiw...
03:15 < petertodd> BlueMatt: maybe do CRC64 as a compromise
03:15 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh wow!
03:16 < gmaxwell> you've been so much more productive than I've been lately.
03:16 < brisque> petertodd: luhn check POW?
03:16 < gmaxwell> You need some kind of graphic involving a fountain of money.
03:16 < andytoshi> i wonder if there's actually a way to involve captchas in the PoW..
03:16 < petertodd> It'd be the master of all coins.
03:16 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: submissions gladly accepted
03:16 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I might take you up on that.
03:16 < brisque> andytoshi: nope. who would make the captcha? the point of POW is that the work is generated without a second party.
03:17 < gmaxwell> brisque: where did he suggest that it would be secure?
03:17 < BlueMatt> anyway, still needs lots of work but for now it does work for making a bitcoin-clone that has custom branding automagically
03:17 < brisque> gmaxwell: right. I'd forgotten I just suggested a check digit as a POW.
03:18 < andytoshi> :P
03:18 < BlueMatt> probably plenty of sed issues, but oh well
03:19 < brisque> for the greater good.
03:19 < gmaxwell> There should be an option to use this in the scripting language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOLCODE
03:20 < BlueMatt> OP_X86 :)
03:20 < andytoshi> brisque: suppose you have to find a hash, and an 2-color image of the hash's hex code which starts with the same bytes when read as a bitmap
03:20 < andytoshi> and the users have to solve the captcha for their node to accept the blocks
03:21 < brisque> BlueMatt: you should probably avoid being malicious. the simple existence of such a tool is enough to make the point.
03:21 < gmaxwell> brisque: thats not malicious, it's just ill advised.
03:21 < petertodd> BlueMatt: OP_PYTHON
03:22 < gmaxwell> brisque: any coin can be made malicious, e.g. generate a coin with this tool and pay for the source, then wedge in their attack code.
03:22 < andytoshi> OP_ENGLISH, and again you need user intervention to validate
03:22 < brisque> andytoshi: almost as good as that altcoin that promised to perform denial of service attacks against the announcer of a new block.
03:22 < petertodd> andytoshi: OP_POSTMODERN_CRITIQUE
03:22 < CodeShark> gmaxwell: if you understand things well enough to wedge in some attack code, you probably don't need to be paying anyone to generate you your coin :)
03:23 < andytoshi> petertodd: yes! then you can just publish blank captchas and win all the coins
03:23 < petertodd> andytoshi: nah, doesn't work like that, the critique has to get more convoluted with each passing block to avoid being too derivative
03:23 < brisque> CodeShark: I think the idea would be that bluematt signs the clean source he originally makes to avoid that problem. it avoids the situation where bluematt is claimed to have backdoored a created altcoin.
03:23 < gmaxwell> in any case, zany features need to be dumb and trivial to implement.
03:24 < gmaxwell> e.g. five line changes.
03:24 < brisque> quantum blocks. if you observe them they become invalid.
03:24 < petertodd> gmaxwell: OP_RETURN_TRUE...
03:24 < gmaxwell> e.g. "fractal difficulty adjustment".
03:24 < CodeShark> I would prefer to just allow people to set all these parameters in a config file for bitcoind :)
03:24 < brisque> gmaxwell: the trend seems to be toward random block rewards or "bonus" blocks.
03:24 < CodeShark> and then the wizard would just output the config file
03:25 < petertodd> "replace IRC seed node mechanism with bitmessage"
03:25 < petertodd> "bruteforce IPv4 address space to find peers"
03:25 < brisque> oh I like that one.
03:25 < CodeShark> since all the alts would use the same codebase as bitcoind, only the bitcoind source would need to be signed
03:25 < petertodd> brisque: "bruteforce IPv6 address space to find peers"
03:26 < brisque> petertodd: require 65536 open ports to connect to peers.
03:26 < petertodd> oh, make the PoW algorithm be cracking the genesis block pubkey
03:26 < brisque> no, make the POW algorithm to be cracking Bitcoin's genesis block pubkey.
03:26 < andytoshi> making the script turing complete might be fun to watch
03:27 < gmaxwell> petertodd: forging a signature to spend the genesis block premined coins is better perhaps.
03:27 < petertodd> brisque: there is only one true genesis
03:27 < andytoshi> and then publish a transaction which mines for you :)
03:27 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: no one outside of this room does anything with script, it would be boring.
03:27 < CodeShark> allow dynamic linking from bitcoind to the hash function (and perhaps also the block reward rule)
03:27 < brisque> petertodd: true, most of them use litecoin's anyway.
03:28 < CodeShark> then you only need to sign the hash function module
03:28 < gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, how about the POW is attempting to forge a bitcoin transaction sending block 1's coins to 1GMaxwel...
03:28 < petertodd> gmaxwell: +1
03:28 < gmaxwell> petertodd: and then in the @#$@ed up chance that someone actually solves it everyone thinks I'm .. fuck bad idea! bad idea!
03:28 < brisque> BlueMatt: what are you going to do with the alert keys? I doubt anybody outside of the core developers even know how to use them..
03:29 < gmaxwell> brisque: the ltc devs know how to use them!
03:29 < brisque> BlueMatt: I actually checked a while back and most altcoins use litecoin's alert pubkeys.
03:29 < petertodd> brisque: make the alert system scriptable!
03:29 < BlueMatt> brisque: leave them unless I have motivation to change it...I'm banking on no one using any of this anyway...
03:29 < gmaxwell> yea, it needs some brainwallet stuff for the alert key.
03:29 < brisque> great, someone works out the brainwallet is "pumpkin" and shuts down squashcoin.
03:30 < andytoshi> make the addresses pronouncable, drop them to 40 bits or so so you can memorize them
03:30 < gmaxwell> brisque: well alert keys won't shut anything down ... until that feature is turned on.
03:30 < petertodd> gmaxwell: generate the alt-coin from a brainwallet, picking the options based on the seed
03:30 < BlueMatt> next steps: make scrypt work, pre-mine a single block on the server so that pulling up the first node gets you a peer like magic (and it doesnt say "500 days behind)
03:30 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: you joke but NXT coin does that.
03:30 < andytoshi> oh :(
03:30 < brisque> gmaxwell: isn't there a "safe mode" switch which makes the network a little unusable?
03:30 < gmaxwell> brisque: nah, not triggerable by alerts anymore.
03:30 < brisque> oh neat.
03:31 < brisque> wiki needs updating, everything I learn is antiquated.
03:31 < brisque> oh no it doesn't. I didn't read properly.
03:32 < petertodd> BlueMatt: make the PoW function a simulation of monkeys typing out hamlet
03:33 < andytoshi> the PoW should be forging signatures ... and it costs extra to set your own actual signing key
03:35 < gmaxwell> petertodd: thats starting to sound like the 'poetry' part of the solidcoin 2.0 POW.
03:35 < petertodd> gmaxwell: do tell
03:35 < CodeShark> anyone wanna try using a new GUI tool for creating and signing m-of-n transactions?
03:35  * andytoshi hopes this poetry thing isn't real..
03:36 < CodeShark> gmaxwell: I got rid of that annoying boost_log dependency :)
03:36 < andytoshi> i have tried CodeShark's thing, it's pretty slick
03:36 < brisque> CodeShark: is it something portable? willing to try it if I can.
03:37 < CodeShark> it's been tested in linux and windows 8, currently working on a mac build and a windows 32 bit build
03:37 < CodeShark> unfortunately, I don't have binaries nor full packages ready yet
03:38 < gmaxwell> petertodd: the pow has a little 6th grade level rant about some of the people 'realsolid' dislikes that it hashes over and over again.
03:38 < brisque> CodeShark: have a repository I can clone?
03:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: that's... spectacular
03:39 < nessence> CodeShark: I'd love to. I maybe able to get it built on a mac too
03:41 < gmaxwell> ohh.. whats that actress that has that unflattering picture she wants taken off the internets? make that part of the pow.
03:42 < petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, or just go full-retard and make the pow be the utxo set...
03:42 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in any case, what you should do is make it clear that you're willing to operate as a market for new features. E.g. someone can submit a patch to you, and you'll give them a share of the revenue.
03:42 < BlueMatt> hmm, that would be fun
03:43 < andytoshi> yeah, you'd get way better stuff than we can come up with
03:43 < andytoshi> that realsolid thing is classic
03:43 < gmaxwell> well, dunno. you'd get _more_ stuff.
03:43 < gmaxwell> plus it would be stuff that comes with patches.
03:44 < BlueMatt> whatever generates lots of use
03:52 < michagogo|cloud> 10:41:13 <gmaxwell> ohh.. whats that actress that has that unflattering picture she wants taken off the internets? make that part of the pow.
03:52 < michagogo|cloud> gmaxwell: *
04:07 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what, miley cyrus?
04:07 < justanotheruser> And her proof of twerk?
04:07 < justanotheruser> (joke stolen from someone else)
04:24 < gmaxwell> hah
04:24 < gmaxwell> Wizards may enjoy my curmudgeonly response: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395468.0
04:28 < brisque> I like the idea of trying to implement a high cost KDF but without the high cost.
04:30 < brisque> the lines about sha being compromised are completely irrelevant in the terms of a brainwallet anyway, the expensive bit is always going to be the ECDSA.
04:31 < brisque> and if you knew the private key to be able to attack the hash.. well then you don't need the original phrase anyway.
04:38 < gmaxwell> brisque: the conversion to a pubkey is much faster than a good KDF should be for a "brainwallet" (if you must have a brainwallet at all)
04:38 < gmaxwell> but 200 (lol) iterations of a regular hash function doesn't really help
04:41 < brisque> gmaxwell: it's such a broken concept anyway, yet people just want to keep on making it worse.
04:45 < gmaxwell> brisque: thats what my last bit was trying to say, I don't know how many ways I can say it.
04:45 < gmaxwell> It's not getting through.
04:49 < CodeShark> what about "no matter how you implement it, it sucks. give up!"
07:22 < michagogo|cloud> BlueMatt: You may want to mention the 0.01 BTC cost on Coingen before the parameters are entered
07:23 < michagogo|cloud> s/.0/./
07:32 < michagogo|cloud> ;;later tell BlueMatt As of Magiccoin, line 9 in version.cpp still refers to Bitcoin-Qt
07:32 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
07:33 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: you paid for it?
07:33 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: nah
07:33 < michagogo|cloud> magiccoin is already paid for
07:33 < brisque> oh neat.
07:34 < michagogo|cloud> (I created WZC, wizardcoin, for this channel if anyone feels like paying 0.1 BTC to 1M5JxepsgUqXQ5gpV76ncxZ2UhT8K1oaZ9)
07:34 < brisque> might want to make sure there's a backend behind them and not just placeholders.
07:35 < michagogo|cloud> Hmm, what do the coingen coins use for bootstrapping?
07:35 < brisque> nothing at the moment. bluematt is planning on making a dummy server for boostrapping.
07:35 < adam3us> isnt a .1 btc fee a barrier to entry? isnt the point of coingen to lower the barrier to entry (so people who dont know how to do archane things like use compilers also get to innovate) so we get more crypto currency innovation like dogecoins
07:36 < brisque> adam3us: I think they're being revised eventually
07:36 < adam3us> brisque: is there a website?
07:37 < brisque> adam3us: http://coingen.bluematt.me/
07:39 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: there's actually references to bitcoin everywhere, needs a quick run through to change them all to xcoin before compile time.
07:40 < adam3us> brisque: fantastic :) innovation wow.  should allow param-tweaks, its part of the game.  15sec block interval ftw!
07:41 < brisque> I'd say that's planned.
07:41 < brisque> it's got more features than last time I looked.
07:41 < brisque> ;;tell later BlueMatt you might want to move that URL pronto, it's been posted in the main chat.
07:41 < gribble> Error: I haven't seen later, I'll let you do the telling.
07:42 < brisque> ;;later tell BlueMatt you might want to move the coingen URL, it's been posted in the main chat.
07:42 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
07:42 < adam3us> brisque: i suggest to BlueMatt that it may be interesting to generate params randomly from the hash of the coin name (for the genetic algorithm approach to chosing coin params) maybe we'll get a surprise winner
07:43 < brisque> do we have the density of altcoins for that to work?
07:43 < adam3us> brisque: (it might have been my idea to do coingen... BlueMatt & I were talking about it a few weeks back.  encouraging crypto coin diversity & innovation & lowering the barrier to entry)
07:44 < adam3us> brisque: well i was thinking maybe we'd get aaacoin through zzz coin, that' be quite varied
07:44 < brisque> adam3us: probably was. I can't imagine anything coming out of increased diversity, but it should be fun finding out
07:45 < brisque> I bet /somebody/ will make a block target of 1 second. that will be fun to play with.
07:46 < adam3us> brisque: maybe we can get better price discovery if dogecoin competes with aaacoin with parms=rng(seed=aaa) through zzz
07:47 < brisque> you can't eliminate the effect of the name from the other variables though
07:47 < adam3us> brisque: it will be very interesting to observe the marketing efforts of aaa vs aab vs bbq
07:49 < gmaxwell> adam3us: it was also a proposal of mine from some time ago.
07:49 < adam3us> brisque: yes thats most interesting.  you may detect some dogecoin wow tongue in cheek about the whole endeavor but i think it could have real benefits, unimagined by the promoters of particularl BBR coins.  maybe branding and features have to be stronger if there are more brands
07:49 < gmaxwell> I was trying to talk Luke-Jr into it because I thought he could do a nice mining pool tie-in with merged mined ones.
07:49 < adam3us> gmaxwell: figures... too many reinventions :)  still i like the idea very very much..
07:50 < gmaxwell> yea, as I said previously, ... dillution effects break the economics of the small ones much worse than the big ones; so presumably with enough of this there will be no more param tweak coins with a non-zero market value.
07:50 < brisque> adam3us: I don't think you can eliminate the effect of the name on the value without using large control groups. have you considered enlisting parallel universes?
07:51 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yes, i was trying to keep the tongue in cheek, but i agree this is the predicted positive outcome.  i wonder if it will surprise us also though :)
07:52 < gmaxwell> win win
07:54 < adam3us> gmaxwell: i think we were talking about it, but for others it could be interesting to encourage or facilitate competition in the form of like hash rate spikes, 'coin of the day' placement, an automatic exchange listing
07:55 < adam3us> gmaxwell: i wonder also if there is a way to do this without consuming electricity.  a trusted server approach maybe.  renting virtual vsp, buying virtual asics that virtually fail to be delivered on time etc.  then we could even add random events to mix it up a bit!
07:57 < adam3us> gmaxwell: u could even define proof of work functions with so far impossible to achieve properties :)
07:58 < brisque> adam3us: RSA coin. solve a block by factoring a private key.
07:58 < sipa> is factoring progressless?
07:58 < brisque> pretty much
07:59 < gmaxwell> depends on how you do it.
07:59 < kinlo> there is no way to factor rsa's so you'll just have to guess/brute force the values
07:59 < gmaxwell> it's very very very not progressless for the subexponential methods.
07:59 < kinlo> but who is going to generate the rsa keys?
07:59 < kinlo> that person will (at least temporary) have access to p & q
08:00 < brisque> MD5 proof of work would be fun.
08:01 < brisque> you'd have to prove that md5(block + a) = md5( block + b) and b!=a
08:01 < brisque> ie, finding a collision.
08:01 < gmaxwell> Most of modern factoring is based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixon%27s_factorization_method  which is pretty much grade-school accessible... kinda fun to read about and play with if you've never toyed with fancy factoring methods.
08:02 < gmaxwell> brisque: not progress free, but doesn't have to be for the tool.
08:03 < brisque> gmaxwell: the issue if there was progress made in a linear fashion you'd just all be racing to the same goal, wouldn't you?
08:03 < brisque> that is, the fastest person would always win.
08:03 < gmaxwell> kinlo: Bytecoin sent me email saying that he had a trustless way to do RSA number generation.
08:04 < michagogo|cloud> ;;later tell BlueMatt Looks like Magiccoin crashes when you issue the getblocktemplate command, btw...
08:04 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
08:04 < gmaxwell> brisque: right thats if it's 100% progress, there are degrees in between.
08:04 < gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: did you pay for it to be mineable? :P
08:05 < michagogo|cloud> Hmm, actually
08:05 < michagogo|cloud> bitcoin-qt on Windows crashed the first time
08:05 < michagogo|cloud> now it's just hung
08:06 < michagogo|cloud> odd
08:09 < kinlo> gmaxwell: that would be cool
08:10 < michagogo|cloud> ;;gentime 3.8 1
08:10 < gribble> The average time to generate a block at 3.8 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 18 minutes and 50 seconds
08:14 < michagogo|cloud> ;;gentime 18 1
08:14 < gribble> The average time to generate a block at 18.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 3 minutes and 58 seconds
08:14 < michagogo|cloud> Ooh
08:14 < michagogo|cloud> Just realized I might be getting the BE that I ordered later today
08:14 < sipa> BE?
08:15 < sipa> a big endian?
08:15 < kinlo> block eruptor? :)
08:15 < michagogo|cloud> block erupter
08:15 < sipa> ah
08:15 < michagogo|cloud> Woot, just mined a MGC block :-D
08:16 < brisque> mgc?
08:16 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: magiccoin
08:16 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: http://coingen.bluematt.me/status.html
08:16 < brisque> oh
08:17 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: hold on, I want some magic too
08:17 < michagogo|cloud> ;;genrate 1 330
08:17 < gribble> The expected generation output, at 1.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 330.0, is 1.5239591407 BTC per day and 0.0634982975291 BTC per hour.
08:17 < michagogo|cloud> erm
08:17 < michagogo|cloud> ;;gentime 330 1
08:17 < gribble> The average time to generate a block at 330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 13 seconds
08:19 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: damn, no autotools.
08:20 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: Nah, it's 0.8.6-based, I think
08:20 < kinlo> gmaxwell: you wouldn't happen to have the theory behind this trustless rsa generation?
08:20 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: Are you not on Windows or Linux?
08:20 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: debian, just spinning up a new VM for it.
08:21 < michagogo|cloud> So you don't need autotools :P
08:21 < brisque> makes my life easier though
08:22 < kinlo> eh, did BlueMatt really created a coingenerator? :O
08:22 < michagogo|cloud> kinlo: yeah, coingen.bluematt.me
08:22 < kinlo> yeah, just a bit startled :p
08:23 < michagogo|cloud> Wait, this is known outside of this channel?
08:23 < kinlo> not that I know of :)
08:23 < brisque> yeah, someone posted it on #bitcoin ahead of time.
08:23 < michagogo|cloud> Someone appears to have posted it on Reddit...
08:23 < brisque> someone needs to tell him to move it, it's nowhere near ready for public release.
08:23 < kinlo> eh, why not? :)
08:24 < michagogo|cloud> ;;seen BlueMatt
08:24 < gribble> BlueMatt was last seen in #bitcoin-wizards 4 hours, 39 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <BlueMatt> whatever generates lots of use
08:24 < michagogo|cloud> Someone created an account just for this, it seems
08:24 < michagogo|cloud> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1u861l/coingen_create_your_own_altcoin_in_60_seconds/
08:24 < michagogo|cloud> http://www.reddit.com/user/altcoin_fan
08:24 < michagogo|cloud> "redditor for 41 minutes"
08:25 < brisque> doubt it would have been him, there's a lot more features to add before it's ready
08:25 < brisque> changing the address prefix for starters
08:27 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: what's your MGC peer running at?
08:27 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: I have one running on my laptop behind a NAT
08:27 < michagogo|cloud> And one on 2a01:4f8:190:1405:beef::
08:28 < michagogo|cloud> or 5.9.140.23
08:28 < michagogo|cloud> 5 blocks at the moment
08:28 < michagogo|cloud> But later today (potentially in a few hours) I may be able to point a couple hundred mh at it
08:29 < michagogo|cloud> Mh*
08:30 < brisque> hm, could you try adding 95.85.34.118?
08:30 < kinlo> heh
08:30 < kinlo> I'll start creating a pool :)
08:31 < brisque> there we go
08:38 < michagogo|cloud> Okay, g2g for a bit
08:38 < michagogo|cloud> 9 blocks so far
08:42 < brisque> heh, threw an old miner at it. there's a few more blocks now.
09:05 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: how many?
09:06 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: 104.
09:06 < michagogo|cloud> When I get home in 45 mins or so, I'll be able to churn them out every 13 secs or so
09:07 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: found my Block Eruptor and burnt my fingers on it.
09:07 < michagogo|cloud> Do they heat up quickly?
09:07 < michagogo|cloud> I just got my BE -- it's much smaller than I pictured
09:08 < brisque> surface of them is absolutely untouchable when they're running. just be careful not to grab it on the aluminium edge and you'll be fine.
09:09 < michagogo|cloud> How quickly does it get to that point? Is it a matter of seconds? Minutes?
09:09 < michagogo|cloud> Also, how long does it take to cool down?
09:10 < brisque> not long in both directions, probably about 30 seconds before being touchable/untouchable
09:11 < michagogo|cloud> I wish I hadn't lost my infrared thermometer
09:12 < brisque> one of those things that I've always wanted, but never had a reasonable excuse to purchase
09:12 < brisque> a FLIR camera would be optimal, one of the cheaper ones flashed with the $8000 ones firmare.
09:14 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: I don't actually remember buying it
09:15 < michagogo|cloud> I think it was in a bag of stuff that my family had ordered online to be delivered to my grandparents in the US, since they were coming to visit us
09:16 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: I swear I've never bought kitchen towels either, but there they are.
09:17 < michagogo|cloud> Nobody knew who it was for, so we ended up just asking "who wants it?"
09:23 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: contact thermometer says 61°, but it's probably higher
09:24 < michagogo|cloud>  °C, I assume?
09:24 < brisque> yes.
09:26 < brisque> seems to top out at 68° (154F), but I don't know how accurate that is.
10:16 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: Still got your BE pointed at it?
10:16 < michagogo|cloud> I just got back
10:17 < michagogo|cloud> Just started mine going
10:33 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: one sec.
10:35 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: heh, you're actually orphaning my blocks I think. my latency to the MagicCoin server is extremely high.
10:35 < michagogo|cloud> "the MagicCoin server"?
10:36 < brisque> well, my node is on a VPS quite far from my block eruptor
10:37 < brisque> 50% of my work is being orphaned before the RPC server can catch up. I suppose that's why very high frequency altcoins have troubles.
10:41 < adam3us> brisque: OMG what have we done:D... u know someone sent me an interesting psychology article which seems to indicate that the more trouble users have achieving their objective (novice or I suppose technical also) the more they ascribe value and feel involved with the result
10:42 < adam3us> brisque: so in fact an altcoin (from coingen) may actually achieve a higher market cap by putting misleading, conflicting instructions and crufty command line, no UX, crashy softwre with gotchas etc so then the users have to work hard on a forum to get the thing to work period.
10:43 < brisque> adam3us: presumably there's a limit to that, a sweet spot where it's difficult enough to be rewarding to the user to get it set up, but not so difficult as to be above the heads of the target user
10:43 < adam3us> brisque: then they feel a big sense of accomplishment once they get it to actually mine foobarcoins and will be reluctant to sell for low prices i guess, and maybe they build a sense of community while they are battling the poor instructions
10:43 < adam3us> brisque: probably :)
10:44 < brisque> michagogo and I bonded by simultaneously burning fingers on moderately dangerous ASIC hardware.
10:44 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: Uh?
10:44 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: havent burnt yourself on yours yet?
10:45 < michagogo|cloud> Nope
10:45 < michagogo|cloud> Haven't touched it since plugging it in
10:45 < brisque> you're lucker than I.
10:45 < michagogo|cloud> heh
10:45 < michagogo|cloud> Also, I think I'm not orphaning *all* of your blocks
10:45 < michagogo|cloud> One just got rejected, according to bfgminer
10:45 < brisque> adam3us: that is interesting though, there's a lot of psychology going on with altcoins that I find fascinating
10:46 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: certainly, but you end up with a significantly higher proportion of hashrate due to the way I've got my network setup. we'd be even if not for my latent RPC connection.
10:46 < michagogo|cloud> Right, probably
10:47 < adam3us> brisque: dogecoin and shitcoin ... whatever you do - the users STILL mine the heck out of it!  call it pyramid coin or scam coin, or dont mine this coin, i bet they'll still mine it
10:47 < michagogo|cloud> A:76 R:13
10:47 < brisque> A: 41 R: 22
10:47 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: Have you got reorgs in your debug.log, then?
10:47 < brisque> adam3us: because there's the mentality that something has got to make them rich, I suppose.
10:48 < michagogo|cloud> Balance: 2850.00 MGC
10:48 < michagogo|cloud> Immature: 3950.00 MGC
10:48 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: no, what's happening is you're outstripping me and then the getwork submission gets rejected due to the latency
10:49 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: So how come it's not A:13 R:76?
10:49 < brisque> if we were both mining with 0 latency then we'd get reorganisations presumably
10:49 < michagogo|cloud> or something?
10:49 < brisque> couldn't tell you, I'm going on my best assumptions given what I'm seeing (rejects but little if any reorganisations)
10:50 < adam3us> brisque: seems likely the motivation for almost everything except bitcoin itself which languished at < 1c value for years.  there are some coins with interesting features and actual thought.  but even amongst those its often accompanied by a mass premine or other demonstration of unsustainable greed that probably would kill the coin / share.
10:50 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: oh, of course
10:50 < michagogo|cloud> wait, no
10:50 < michagogo|cloud> nvm
10:51 < brisque> I also seem to be wasting work, my BE will get two results in a second and only one will make it into a returned block. it never got the time to get the work for the next block.
10:51 < michagogo|cloud> Interesting
10:52 < brisque> adam3us: it's possible that there's interesting thought in there, but it's outweighed by the number of people just flooding useless coins with creative names and marketing.
10:53 < adam3us> brisque: yes thats why the coingen idea is so interesting (and entertaining)... maybe it'll squelch the silly coins and leave room for actual innovation.
10:56 < brisque> adam3us: I guess we will see how it plays out. the comments on the little-too-soon post on reddit.com seems to imply that there's demand but they don't want to pay $200 for it, implying that they would like to for less cost.
10:56 < adam3us> brisque: i would say do it for $0.
10:56 < adam3us> brisque: the whole point is to get lots of alt-coins.  make money by giving them a free listing on an alt-to-alt exchange.
10:56 < jgarzik> adam3us, RE "i bet they'll still mine it" -- some people who consider themselves wizards (note: they typically aren't) run bots that auto-switch across any new coin that appears, scam or not.  "scamcoin1" and "scamcoin2" are just two more entries in a bot's working list.  And In Theory(tm), the bots will notice when profitability is possible, or not.
10:57 < brisque> adam3us: I'd personally make it a small barrier, then you've proved somebody has 0.01BTC of faith in the system or whatever the value will be.
10:58 < brisque> adam3us: helps bluematt cover his server bills too, I imagine compiling lots of altcoin binaries gets boring for it after a period.
10:59 < adam3us> brisque: yeah, 0.01btc or even .001btc ought to do it.
10:59 < adam3us> brisque: you probably have to do some kind of anti-DoS or someone will script it.
11:00 < brisque> nobody would script something you have to pay for.
11:01 < adam3us> brisque: yes thats my point.  well they might if they figure their bot can script, then mine, flip on the included alt-alt exchange and repeat :)  but thats ok if it covers server bills
11:01 < brisque> I'm sure $10 a coin would be worthwhile for bluematt to churn out
11:02 < adam3us> brisque: its just cpu for some minutes.  probably with a bit of tweaking it could be incrementally compiled -- diffs isolated
11:04 < michagogo|cloud> It's not very useful in its current form
11:04 < michagogo|cloud> It kinda needs more in the way of options
11:04 < brisque> I'm sure he'll get to it.
11:05 < michagogo|cloud> brisque: I think you're getting a bunch
11:05 < michagogo|cloud> My immature balance is hovering around 3000-3500
11:05 < brisque> 14k coins matured, heh
11:06 < michagogo|cloud> If I were getting all the blocks, it'd be 5000 flat
11:06 < michagogo|cloud> or maybe 6000
11:06 < adam3us> michagogo|cloud: yeah i think it needs a premine amount choice, block interval, retarget interval, inflation/deflation choices
11:06 < brisque> I'm sure he'll be happy to add features for additional fees
11:06 < michagogo|cloud> adam3us: premine?
11:06 < adam3us> michagogo|cloud: maybe a hard fork option (like protoshares did)
11:07 < michagogo|cloud> Just mine a bunch before you release it
11:07 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: it's the hip altcoin thing. a bit of mining before the public release to make sure the owner gets rich.
11:07 < adam3us> michagogo|cloud: yeah u know mirror the choices made by various alt-coins.  some of them are hugely premined, it saves electricity
11:07 < michagogo|cloud> (also, it probably needs an option to keep it private, or at least unlisted)
11:07 < adam3us> brisque: yes but for some reason even quite large premines dont seem to discourage miners much :)
11:08 < adam3us> brisque: apparently 100% proof of stake doesnt seem to deter people either (nxt?) dont think they thought that through at all
11:09 < adam3us> brisque: oooh and exodus model.  need an exodus model.  but on an alt chain, cant spam the bitcoin block chain.  i think nxt has that also (there was 21 btc sent to the exodus address with 100% proof of stake model!)
11:09 < adam3us> brisque: apparently solidcoin was a gold mine of interesting params, though I missed that fun :)
11:09 < brisque> you're thinking too detailed. this is quite a simple premise with no thought was involved.
11:13 < amiller> it's fun to see a crisis of participation in this new world, rather than non-participation :o
11:15 < brisque> michagogo|cloud: it's been fun making magic with you, but my VPS is about to be destroyed.
11:15 < michagogo|cloud> Why?
11:16 < brisque> I've had my fun, I don't see any use in keeping the instance any longer
11:16 < michagogo|cloud> oh
11:16 < michagogo|cloud> I misunderstood you
11:16 < brisque> oh yes, intentionally destroyed
11:19 < michagogo|cloud> Just for fun, I'm trying to create a pool for it
11:19 < brisque> not much point though, any share for a given client will also be a block
11:20 < brisque> I suppose you're close to a difficulty adjustment now anyway, which solves that issue
12:08 < pigeons> andytoshi: are you still doing daily coinjoins? about what time? maybe the web page could note that?
12:36 < adam3us> want to think more about incentives & 51% security of secure 1:1 peg mechanism
12:37 < adam3us> seems like it would be a very interesting and useful feature, but can it be incentive and 51% secure, and can it go beyond SPV security?
12:48 < andytoshi> pigeons: not regularly (yet)
12:48 < andytoshi> i'll set up an IRC bot to show up on #bitcoin and remind people a few times a day
12:53 < andytoshi> also, for those wondering about the "poetry" gmaxwell said exists in solidcoin 2, you can download the source from solidcoin.info on the wayback machine, the commentary starts at util.cpp:1618
12:54 < gmaxwell> Did I describe it accurately?
13:13 < andytoshi> you undersold it, i think
13:14 < andytoshi> one moment, i'll post it here, i guess it's public in some sense anyway
13:14 < andytoshi>     static unsigned char SomeArrogantText1[]="Back when I was born the world was different. As a kid I could run around the streets, build things in the forest, go to the beach and generally live a care free life. Sure I had video games and played them a fair amount but they didn't get in the way of living an adventurous life. The games back then were different too. They didn't require 40 hours of
13:14 < andytoshi> your life to finish. Oh the good old days, will you ever come back?";
13:14 < andytoshi>     static unsigned char SomeArrogantText2[]="Why do most humans not understand their shortcomings? The funny thing with the human brain is it makes everyone arrogant at their core. Sure some may fight it more than others but in every brain there is something telling them, HEY YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WORLD. THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. But we can't all be that, can we? Well perhaps we
13:14 < andytoshi> can, introducing GODria, take 2 pills of this daily and you can be like RealSolid, lord of the universe.";
13:14 < andytoshi>     static unsigned char SomeArrogantText3[]="What's up with kids like artforz that think it's good to attack other's work? He spent a year in the bitcoin scene riding on the fact he took some other guys SHA256 opencl code and made a miner out of it. Bravo artforz, meanwhile all the false praise goes to his head and he thinks he actually is a programmer. Real programmers innovate and create new work,
13:14 < andytoshi> they win through being better coders with better ideas. You're not real artforz, and I hear you like furries? What's up with that? You shouldn't go on IRC when you're drunk, people remember the weird stuff.";
14:24 < gmaxwell> petertodd: https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/155.pdf  I thought you might like the unusually clear explination of how LEGO garbled circuits achieves high security with modest amounts of cut and choose.
14:41 < sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt you have a typo on coingen: eactly
14:41 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
16:18 < gmaxwell> petertodd: that paper also suggests to me a simple protocol for non-interactive zero-knowelge proofs of execution which is based entirely on symmetric cryptography and which I could explain to a layman.  Though it's not succinct, the proofs would scale with n^2 in the number of gates in the circuit.
16:20 < tholenst> may I ask: what paper is that?
16:20 < tholenst> (i was late ^^)
16:20 < gmaxwell> 11:24 < gmaxwell> petertodd: https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/155.pdf  I thought you might like the unusually clear explination of how LEGO garbled circuits achieves high  security with modest amounts of cut and choose.
16:21 < tholenst> ty
21:27 < BlueMatt> lololol...first payment for coingen...jesuscoin
21:27 < BlueMatt> well, ok, second to nexuscoin...how much you wanna bet thats copyright infringement?
21:28 < kyrio> lol
21:28 < kyrio> bluematt, give me some free coin generation
21:28 < kyrio> i want to make Meinkoin
21:28 < kyrio> neonazis need love too
21:28 < sipa> haha
21:28 < kyrio> someone stole my shekels coin idea =/
21:29 < kyrio> i was going to release them both at the same time
21:30 < sipa> can you take this to #bitcoin or something? :p
21:30 < BlueMatt> sorry, /me was trying to keep coingen here while it was still in early alpha, but considering its already out there, oh well
21:31 < justanotheruser>  BlueMatt is nexus copyrighted? Blade Runner used "nexus" in '82 way before the Nexus came out
21:32 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: anyways you have 2 people already making coins?
21:32 < justanotheruser> *made
21:32 < sipa> well, i don't care about coingen itself, it's sort of fun to trivialize altcoins
21:32 < sipa> but when someone is actually serious about using it...
21:33 < BlueMatt> well it has to be used before altcoins are actually trivial...
21:33 < sipa> a "make random bitflips in the source code until it compiles" option would be fun
21:33 < BlueMatt> heh
21:34 < justanotheruser> a coingen could make a lot of money
--- Log closed Fri Jan 03 00:00:49 2014