00:04:42Luke-Jr:hearn: there's a difference between your node degrading, and your node breaking entirely
00:07:47hearn:i'm not so sure. by analogy to RNGs, a degraded RNG looks like it's operating correctly, but is often the same as a fully broken rng (i.e. giving you all zeros)
00:08:01hearn:but one is a lot more detectable than another
00:10:47hearn:and the issue for me is detectability. e.g. i'd be totally cool with an -spv switch that says to a full node "don't run scripts for now", and then if your node starts saying "I think I don't know about some rules used by the new majority" such as triggered by block version, it'd require a restart with that flag
00:11:05hearn:then the operator can reason about what impact that might have on their business, if any, and the node can stop serving the block chain to other peers, etc.
00:13:43hearn:anyway, in the end, i don't care all that much. we'll muddle through no matter what
00:13:56gmaxwell:hearn: Detectability can be fully addressed though. E.g. transactions showing up with 'future' versions and using nopcodes are something you could notice... more formalism could be given to detection there.
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01:14:13tacotime:I'm just surprised broken RNGs like the one from blockchain even happen very often, as an easy spot check would be to call the RNG twice and generate a signature using the same data aside from what you called from the RNG, and then see if it ever outputs the same thing twice.
01:14:24tacotime:I imagine you could make it do this lots and lots of times in testing.
01:14:43tacotime:It would have caught the reused R-values, I would guess..
01:16:08tacotime:(slightly digressive)
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01:28:28brand0:tacotime, broken prngs aren't generally that easy to spot
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01:29:05brand0:they often look random, but if you can guess the seed value (often time) then you can eventually re-generate the privkey with a little luck
01:29:18andytoshi:tacotime: i bet you could come up with half a dozen rng failure modes on the same order of "obviously broken" as a constant output .. agreed that sanity checking wouldn't work, but i also think it's probably not worth the effort
01:29:37andytoshi:as brand0 says, no matter what you do it can break just as seriously in a way you didn't consider
01:30:37andytoshi:o.O s/wouldn't work/couldn't hurt/
01:35:31tacotime:yeah i was wondering about that bit
01:36:00tacotime:but right, i feel like you should at least sanity check to vs simple mistakes
01:37:20tacotime:there's always stuff you can't control, but you should make sure that it meets some minimum sane behaviour. at least in terms of signature generation that people's money is relying on. :/
01:37:51brand0:yeah, that's the problem with prng
01:38:03brand0:they can be difficult to audit
01:38:55brand0:looking at the source is helpful, but you don't always get it
01:39:58gmaxwell:tacotime: that ssuggests software is tested. My expirence is that most software is not tested at all, most of what is ... is only tested lightly.
01:40:49kanzure:* kanzure wrote +1000 lines of tests today
01:40:52tacotime:maybe we should make a wiki page of Bad Things That Happen When You Don't Make Test Cases.
01:40:53gmaxwell:Writing software that can be tested in a meaningful way is a substantial increase in effort. And from from toolsets its not really reasonably possible to say that you've actually tested all of the execution space of the program.
01:41:07kanzure:(as of a few seconds ago, actually... what year is this? who are you people?)
01:41:50gmaxwell:tacotime: but even those words are bad. right, unit testing isn't enough. Unit testing would have hapily passed the prior bc.i rng bug with webworkers... because the unit test doesn't run in an identical enviroment to the code. They're just one tool in the box.
01:42:14tacotime:Yeah, I know with btcd we have a lot of test coverage (100% in a lot of places), but a lot of it is just cursory testing to tell you if you've obviously broken something.
01:42:35kanzure:i wonder if abusing webworkers through webkitgtk+ gobject bindings still counts as a unit test
01:43:08gmaxwell:tacotime: often coverage driving testing produces pretty meaningless tests that just happen to make the code go. Better than nothing, perhaps, though it lowers the usefulness of coverage analysis.
01:43:29brand0:unit testing is mostly a defense against regression -- problems you
01:43:36brand0:already know about
01:44:02kanzure:devising tests for scenarios i don't know about is definitely tricky :)
01:44:26gmaxwell:In complex systems most tests are ineffective ... they're not going to tell you about race conditions, or about an attacker being able to drive the system into a state where a exception is thrown because you've run out of memory and doom results, etc.
01:45:21tacotime:Well. Golang has a race tester, though I'm not sure how effective it is. Though I have seen it catch races.
01:46:11gmaxwell:tacotime: sure, it's somewhat similar to DRD. ... useful but it isn't sound.
01:46:31gmaxwell:(I mean, it can tell you if there is a race that you're triggering, but it can't prove your software free of races.)
01:46:44gmaxwell:For security we actually want soundness.
01:47:34brand0:testing it one tool, nothing can replace careful programming practices and auditing
01:47:48gmaxwell:kanzure: well I know how to do it. You use mutation testing: Once the tests are complete enough, you start adding bugs in the software (including randomly).
01:49:12kanzure:and then there's things like internal consistency vs consistency against your local bitcoind node's knowledge of the current blockchain
01:49:30kanzure:(for which i think i can probably safely steal bitcoind-related tests)
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02:30:06op_mul:gmaxwell: although automated testing wouldn't have caught the webworkers bug with bc.i, or the bug where msCrypto wasn't being used, or the bug where window.crypto wasn't being used, a codebase with tests at least suggests that there's some oversight of your codebase.
02:30:57gmaxwell:no disagreement.
02:33:09sipa:to generalize what greg said earlier: the problem often seems to be not realizing what types of errors could exist
02:33:21sipa:not testing those is just a symptom of that
02:34:04sipa:especially in security-critical systems there are many more classes of mistakes that are relevant
02:34:18gmaxwell:op_mul: to be fare, for propritary systems there may be substantial testing thats just not visible to the public. (not that I'd recommend depending on that...)
02:34:47tacotime:well; the bc.i problem could have been tested for if the testing came shipped in the code and was performed before publishing the generated sig to the user (e.g. make 256 signatures first to verify that even in this environment R values are not being reused).
02:35:13gmaxwell:roconnor: hi!
02:35:23tacotime:but maybe having your code self-slowing that much is a problem to the end user.
02:35:51sipa:tacotime: that requires 1) realizing that the RNG is a relevant part of the cryptographic system and 2) that reusing R is dangerous
02:36:24sipa:tacotime: if they would have realized those two things, they 1) wouldn't have written the same code and 2) likely have tests for it
02:36:34op_mul:tacotime: that's not even the problem. having a weak k is just as dangerous as duplicating R. if they had say, a 64 bit RNG rather than an 8 bit one, people would still have lost money and that test would have passed.
02:36:36gmaxwell:that predicatable R is dangerous. (arguably that it was predictable was much worse; and a lot of people mistakingly believe that reuse is required for key leaking)
02:37:14sipa:but saying "testing this is easy!" is not relevant - the problem wasn't that this is hard, the problem is not knowing it could be wrong
02:38:09gmaxwell:yea, "For knowing where to put the chalk mark, $9,999."
02:38:33tacotime:yeah. i guess comprehension of the signing algos is not always a requirement for using them.
02:38:45gmaxwell:( for context http://web.mit.edu/president/communications/com99.html )
02:38:46tacotime:sony has proven that too.
02:39:16op_mul:I don't know how sony managed that. gross misreading of the docs?
02:39:39gmaxwell:tacotime: not even implementing them. Virtually none of the people writing software for this stuff have even the foggiest clue what they're doing, they follow tutorials (often also written by people learning the subject)
02:39:58sipa:tacotime: you don't need to know algorothms, implementation or security prpofs for cryptpgraphic systems
02:40:33sipa:tacotime: but you do need to know under what conditions they are safe to use, and for what purpose and against what attacks
02:42:03tacotime:yeah. i'll probably ask questions about stealth addresses once i get to playing with coding for that. and the chaumian blinding stuff from oleg, i meant to turn that code snippet into something useful. though i'm not sure it's implemented 100% correctly, i'm just going by the snippet posted to gist.
02:42:11gmaxwell:This is part of the reason that all these straight into the weeds tutorials on ECC make me sad. They dive straight into a blow by blow implementation written in english and fail to convey any overarching understanding. The reader walks away able to implement but maybe not safely use, or implement correctly.
02:43:04tacotime:is there an ECC list of "Things To Look Out For" somewhere?
02:43:38op_mul:doubt it.
02:43:41gmaxwell:Cryptography list of things to look out for: look out for lists of thing to look out for.
02:45:08gmaxwell:I'm not actually sure that lists are counterproductive, but they're less helpful than they can appear, because every darn part matters... and no formula can make things right. Certantly if you _only_ apply the checklist you're in trouble.
02:45:14op_mul:a little bit of knowledge about ECC is quite dangerous too, there's a number of people on reddit running around telling people not to reuse addresses because it saves you from RNG problems.
02:45:41op_mul:if you only use the address once, dup R can't hurt you right? right?
02:46:05op_mul:even if that were true, signing two outputs would reveal your private key and then it would just be a double spend race.
02:47:00tacotime:gmaxwell: Well, maybe a list of "bad things that happened when someone did something they thought did something else, and here's why it didn't work the way they thought it did."
02:47:08gmaxwell:tacotime: common failure modes are not handling the group vs field order quite right or tracking what values are what. Everyone that gives 101 tutorials gives people group law which has special cases which must be implemented right, involving comparisons you can get wrong. Most academic discussions ignore details like having to multiply points by the cofactor to avoid subgroup confinement attack
02:47:10tacotime:It would be kind of an interesting read at least.
02:47:14gmaxwell:s (fortunately not an issue for secp256k1), or having to verify that points recieved from the network are actually on the curve.
02:48:23gmaxwell:A lot of crypto code has fallen due to seralization bugs or interactions with seralization and the crypto.
02:48:35tacotime:That makes sense.
02:51:38gmaxwell:Similar to the group law stuff that everyone describes in a way that is harder to implement correctly, the tutorial grade explinations of this stuff have huge timing sidechannels, which maybe more things should worry more about.
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22:06:59justanotheruser:Sorry if this has been covered, but is storj following the original idea? If so, why does it need its own blockchain?
22:10:42jgarzik:justanotheruser, it is not following the original idea at all
22:10:54jgarzik:justanotheruser, two totally different things, same project names!
22:16:55justanotheruser:their claims seem to be very close to the original idea
22:17:11justanotheruser:are they lying, or using fancy wording to make it sound like it does the same thing/
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22:30:36phantomcircuit:justanotheruser, something tells me you can make an educated guess on that one
22:38:05justanotheruser:Well naming it something that it isn't is a form of lying, so I'm going to go with A) They are saying it follows the original idea perfectly when it doesn't.