00:00:00nsh:seems rather esoteric maybe
00:00:10nsh:no more so than the random oracle model though
00:00:11amiller_:thats the premise of a UFO i think
00:00:50amiller_:short answer, it probably does, but a) you can't check, b) you have to sample a lot of times to get a good chance of ending up with one, so oh well
00:01:43kanzure:also i think you can do hashrate proof-of-work incentives as a method of statistical sampling, which provides knowledge of various floors (when an observation is made)
00:02:30kanzure:for example, a task that osmeone would have to specifically point their hashrate at instead of mining blocks, which obviously not everyone is obligated to try which is why i said floor-when-observations-are-made
00:04:24nsh:well, moment of success is a proxy-measurement of hashes attempted, then rate is just the delta
00:04:35nsh:you cannot conceivably measure hashes-that-might-have-been-attempted
00:04:49nsh:which is part of the problem with hashpower liquidity/slushing
00:05:05nsh:and part of what sidechains hopes to solve
00:09:04kanzure:i could imagine being quite easily convinced that hashrate is the wrong word to be using (especially since it's so hard to measure by anyone else)
00:13:56nsh:* nsh muses
00:14:36kanzure:nsh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Sanders_Peirce#Probability_and_statistics
00:14:43kanzure:(not sure if this is the direction you're asking for)
00:15:24nsh:yeah, but i basically hate everyone who has ever written on the subject of statistics or logic
00:15:28nsh:for aesthetic reasons
00:15:34nsh:so it's painful to consume
00:16:11nsh:(conceptuaesthetic reasons, or whatever, the thing that makes you know what's elegant and that's horrific in concepts and their compositions)
00:16:44kanzure:that hate i probably deserved i'm sure, and i have nothing good to offer you
00:16:48kanzure:*is probably
00:48:09kanzure:gmaxwell: regarding your request for materials involving other unintended consequences in complex system design... http://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toyota-unintended.html?m=1
00:48:37kanzure:"1. The Throttle Angle function in the Toyota code had a McCabe Cyclomatic Complexity of 146 (over 50 is considered untestable according to slides) [slide 38] 2. The main throttle function was 1300 lines long, and had no directed tests. [slide 38] 3. I find the static analysis results quite alarming. [slide 37] 4. 80+% of variables were declared as global. [slide 40] I find this to be a stunning lapse of quality, especially for a ...
00:48:43kanzure:... safety-critical system."
00:48:56kanzure:( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718 )
00:56:24kanzure:"The infeasibility of quantifying the reliability of life-critical real-time software" http://www3.cs.stonybrook.edu/~tashbook/fall2009/cse308/butler-finelli-infeasibilit.pdf
00:57:55kanzure:(cited in the slides)
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03:27:53kanzure:maaku: is there a better physical-domain unit or dimension than "work" for describing proof-of-work?
03:28:31kanzure:hm maybe i should be asking fenn, since he's practically the resident evangelist of gnu units heh
04:35:44bramc:Isn't work generally expressed in gigahashes?
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04:49:40kanzure:sure but a gigahash is still a.. er.. "compressed".. physical unit of some other dimensions
04:49:45kanzure:or it might be some dimensionless unit, i haven't checked
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05:10:23Adlai:kanzure: not a perfect analogy, but percentage of checked solution space?
05:23:04bramc:The underlying unit is flops
05:23:31bramc:although there's no floating point involved, so technically it isn't flops, and generally the custom hardware has built-in hashing functionality
06:08:26kanzure:fenn: what is the physical dimensions of a flop second
06:09:13nsh:* nsh blicks
06:09:29nsh:flops has an implicit /
06:10:08nsh:so the physical dimension of a flop(s) second is just a barenumber
06:10:28nsh:the physical dimension of an operation per second is... well i guess we have to analyze a bit what we mean by operation
06:10:37nsh:but it will resolve to entropics
06:10:52nsh:so amount of energy, assuming irreversible computing
06:11:02nsh:thus power
06:15:20op_mul:nsh: what's nice about measuring hashpower is that you can, with some weak assumptions, convert them to the consumption of energy.
06:17:44op_mul:if we make the sort of low end assumption that the entire network is powered by Antminer S5 units, then we're consuming about 0.51 joule per gigahash.
06:18:26nsh:* nsh nods
06:19:18nsh:but actual power consumption/dissipation is itself quite a simplification
06:19:39op_mul:from there, you can move to working out the equivalent costs in various foods. say, how many acorns you'd need to burn in order to mine one block. which comes up with some absolutely hilarious numbers.
06:19:49nsh:actually that's going on is that order is being imported and consumed and disorder exported and gotridof
06:20:01nsh:and that's a geometrical/spacial process
06:20:11nsh:you can't reason about it in put unitary terms
06:20:18nsh:*what's going on
06:20:56op_mul:(an acorn is about 490,000 joules)
06:26:23nsh:do kids play conkers where you grew up op_mul?
06:27:06nsh:the horse chestnut that wins a dozen rounds of smack-the-nuts-attached-to-string-against-each-other
06:27:38nsh:is if qualitatively special, or just quantitatively?
06:28:11op_mul:I'm out of touch with what kids do now. it's probably an iphone game. I only chose nuts because I know they have a very high energy density. about the same as a potato according to wolfram alpha, but in a lot less physical space.
06:28:22nsh:* nsh nods
06:28:49nsh:i'm just wondering about when it stops mattering how much of something there is there
06:29:15nsh:and starts mattering how it's arranged, how energy can be dispersed through it without exceeding some sheer threshold
06:29:45nsh:the winning conker is not necessarily of a greater mass(energy)
06:29:48phantomcircuit:this seems like an add discussion
06:30:06nsh:the disorder?
06:30:26nsh:or operation...
06:32:09op_mul:I was trying to put a real world scale on it, something like petahashes a second is pretty meaningless.
06:33:34nsh:well, it's more meaningful to the statistical expectation than workenergy dissipated
06:33:43nsh:and Bitcoin cares about the former
06:33:58nsh:the economics of bitcoin cares about the latter, though
06:34:32nsh:and that effects the design decisions in ways that are unfortunately filtered through human incentive filters
06:35:21nsh:this is an even more spurious relation than between petahashes and megajoules
06:37:19op_mul:ignoring the tears of the irish, if we burnt every potato produced in 2014 and converted it directly into mining hashpower with zero losses we could run the bitcoin network for 17 days.
06:37:56op_mul:er hold on, I'm off by a large amount there.
06:41:13op_mul:30.12 days.
06:41:53op_mul:maybe that's not such an easy to understand measure of hashpower after all.
06:48:09nsh:matter is a bad measure of work. it's very hard to efficiently convert stuff to stuff-gets-done
06:48:45nsh:if you measured it in the useful energy an average human would get from eating those potatoes
06:49:11nsh:it might be more reasonable
06:49:47nsh:(for silly values of reason, being, incidentally, the best values of reason)
06:51:56op_mul:wolfram alpha tells me that if you ate 300 million tonnes of potatos you would die of vitamin A poisoning.
06:52:44op_mul:at any rate, the only reason you would work out things like this is just to attempt to show scale to a reader.
06:54:54kanzure:.wa 300 million tonnes of potato
06:55:07yoleaux:prepared potato: amount: 300000000 t (metric tons): Calories: | mean value: % daily value: range; total calories: 2.6×10¹⁴ Cal: 1.294×10¹³%: (1.3×10¹⁴ to 3.2×10¹⁴) Cal; fat calories: 2.9×10¹² Cal: | (2.5×10¹² to 5.3×10¹²) Cal; Fats and fatty acids: | mean value: % daily value: range; total fat: 3.7×10⁸ kg: 5.674×10¹¹%: (3×10⁸ to 6.3×10⁸) kg; saturated fat: 9.3×10⁷ kg: 4.65×10¹¹%: (6.6× …
06:55:07yoleaux:10⁷ to 1.6×10⁸) kg
06:59:38phantomcircuit:using tor has gotten a lot more annoying since cloudflare took over the fucking internet
07:00:18op_mul:an interesting feature of cloudflare is that it ruins almost all censorship.
07:05:23phantomcircuit:op_mul, ?
07:06:27op_mul:IP based censorship and MITM based censorship fail if the host is behind cloudflare.
07:07:38op_mul:though I can't say I'm happy about using the cloudflarternet. sites like blockchain.info serving up security critical javascript through a tampering reverse proxy is just insane.
07:26:46phantomcircuit:op_mul, it's easy enough to block the dns requests
07:26:54phantomcircuit:but i guess that's easier to get around
07:27:18op_mul:yes, my ISP only poisons their default DNS I think.
07:27:56op_mul:though I've noticed a few bits of weirdness which suggest a transparent HTTP proxy.
08:15:28fluffypony:op_mul: they could still have the site behind CF and serve the JS off their own tin
08:16:36op_mul:fluffypony: cloudflare could still just inject javascript onto the HTML.
08:16:47fluffypony:that's true
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19:49:48phantomcircuit:fluffypony, indeed cf can do basically anything, they can generate ssl certificates with arbitrary domain names
19:50:07phantomcircuit:and they can trivially conduct a world wide BGP spoof
19:50:35phantomcircuit:cf is basically exactly how you would model a world wide mitm intercept framework...
20:31:05jgarzik:phantomcircuit, and it's a giant SPOF for bitcoin
20:31:15jgarzik:consider the number of bitcoin sites that use it
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