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13:57:52instagibbs:come on wizards it's not e^{} or e^() it's exp() :)
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15:03:27dgenr8:watched gmaxwell and adam3us dealing with a really crappy video link ... fascinating interview. my eyebrows raised at the part where you talked about using moxiebox to keep miners from modifying their software
15:03:53dgenr8:are we talking about closed source? or do I have this all wrong (I hope)
15:13:49andytoshi:dgenr8: definitely not closed source
15:14:19andytoshi:dgenr8: the idea is that the consensus code is in a (small enough to be interpreted by auditable and clearly-correct code) assembler language
15:14:45andytoshi:dgenr8: then it is hashed before execution to ensure that everyone is running exactly the same code
15:15:06andytoshi:this only applies to consensus code, not policy issues, network transport, etc
15:32:22dgenr8:if a misguided miner wanted to modify it, could he?
15:32:36dgenr8:yes, the consensus code
15:40:06CoinMuncher:yes, but the point is that would be his problem, not anyone elses.
15:49:21dgenr8:how does a remote node know what code I'm running? and supposing this is possible, btcd must adapt or die?
15:57:56nsh:* nsh blinks
15:58:08nsh:i think there's a misunderstanding
15:58:21andytoshi:dgenr8: ofc a miner -could- modify the code, but he'd gain literally nothing except to have stopped mining bitcoin
15:58:45andytoshi:dgenr8: and if btcd is running functionally different code than bitcoin core (and no doubt they are) they already have a problem
16:00:27dgenr8:nsh: could you point me to the source of your understanding please
16:02:28nsh:well, i haven't seen the video you're referring to and don't know awfully much about the moxiebox ideas in general
16:02:36nsh:so i should reserve comment until i'm better informed
16:08:56andytoshi:you can probably search the logs for "moxie" ... i don't think this has been written up anywhere
16:14:17siraj:any thoughts on automated transactions? It would allow for atomic cross chain transfers between blockchains with this implemented http://ciyam.org/at/
16:16:15maaku:siraj: you can do atomic cross chain transactions today
16:16:18siraj:if this was implemented in bitcoin you could spend bitcoin on filecoin based storage (IPFS) assuming both implemented AT. Seamless. It could be apart of the W3C of the internet of money
16:16:43siraj:maaku: what was the enabling technology for that in BTC?
16:16:54nsh:internet-of-X considered harmful
16:16:56maaku:siraj: bitcoin script.
16:17:28maaku:siraj: to the rest, AT is hideously complex and will never be implemented in bitcoin
16:18:28maaku:we may hopefully see some more targetted changes to bitcoin script that make it more expressive, but it would need to be sensitive to consensus issues
16:19:01zooko:siraj: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading
16:19:10siraj:dope, reading up on it thx
16:19:10fluffypony:andytoshi: have you got the alts.pdf commit history up on github or not?
16:19:15zooko:siraj: but be warned, I think there is an attack on that through txn malleability.
16:19:35zooko:Maybe someone should add that caveat to that wiki page... maybe me...
16:19:49nsh:* nsh smiles
16:19:53fluffypony:nsh: you mean you don't want your connected lightbulb ordering you replacement toilet paper?
16:19:53siraj:zooko: plz do
16:20:33nsh:well, once you put it that way, i'm very excited. i might write a book for tim o'reilly!
16:21:11nsh:^ DARPA cyber-grand-challenge *smg*
16:21:39nsh:the fingerprint-bone's connected to the wifi-bone. the wifi-bone's connected to the washingmachine-bone
16:21:48fluffypony:"smart fingerprints"
16:22:41nsh:Now heaaaaar the word of the Lord!
16:45:08andytoshi:fluffypony: no, sorry, it's on my todo list... right now it's at git://git.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alt-essay.git
16:51:22andytoshi:zooko: i'm blocked by cloudflare .. can you say whether the wiki version is comprehensible? if not you may want to copy the version from the sidechains whitepaper http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
16:51:41andytoshi:the tiernolan bct thread that i adapted that from wasn't really comprehensible
16:52:14andytoshi:(the sidechains wp should also have a malleability caveat, but i think we didn't because bip62 was already in progress
16:56:31zooko:For future reference, it might be worth mentioning that malleability *would* be a problem in the following way, if malleability were possible.
16:56:40zooko:Although I recognize that the side-chains paper was already long and dense. :-)
16:57:29zooko:andytoshi: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading looks good to me.
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20:28:11maaku:andytoshi: we aren't building chains of unconfirmed transactions though
20:28:30maaku:oh you mean in referening the atomic cross-chain work
21:42:42dgenr8:andytoshi: How can a remote node know what code I'm running? I can think only of some kind of signature performed by obfuscated code.
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22:04:53gmaxwell:dgenr8: I think adam misspoke when he said something like "prevent soft forks"; though you can do ugly things to prevent people from changing software he wasn't talking about that, but rather have a strong public commitment to no intentional changes (e.g. never again have some coordinated soft fork) to the core, and have a design that makes accidental changes unlikely.
22:05:26gmaxwell:(you can 'prevent' people from changing the software by using remote attest, though the strength of that is limited.)
22:08:50dgenr8:gmaxwell, thanks :)
22:11:32nsh:remote attestation as only as strong as the the precision of timing measurement crossed the optimality of the attested algorithm
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