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20:44:49kanzure:"Whenever one objection to scaling is shown to be solvable they just invent more, almost like a stalling tactic."
20:44:56kanzure:almost like security-critical changes shouldn't be rushed
20:46:12fluffypony:c'mon kanzure, "we'll fix it in production"
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21:52:32amiller:our systemization of knowledge paper was accepted to the Oakland conference IEEE S&P
21:52:39amiller:here's a working draft of it. http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BMCNKF15-IEEESP-bitcoin.pdf
21:55:30amiller:im obviously interested if y'all have feedback, we kind of hope it becomes the go-to bitcoin survey paper for the next several years
22:00:29Starsocceraway:Starsocceraway is now known as starsoccer
22:37:14kanzure:amiller: "the developer mailing list, and logged IRC discussions" may be important to highlight the importance of github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
22:41:51amiller:thanks good point
22:42:04amiller:that's where bips live now for one thing
22:43:46kanzure:amiller: i think it would also be useful to emphasize that originally all knowledge of bitcoin not contained in the white paper was extracted by reading the source code and active experimentation. this is not normal in other fields of endeavor, so it needs to be highlighted somehow, even if only by a mention of a source code repo's existence.
22:44:14kanzure:oh, "reference implementation" is sort of close to saying that.
22:46:44kanzure:"The state of the world in Bitcoin is represented by a series of messages called transactions" not quite... how about something like: "The state of the world is based on the set of user-created valid transactions, although the world state is not obligated to contain the complete set (example: unrelayed transactions are trivially absent)" (okay, this is extremely pedantic of me, so no worries if you skip this)
22:48:53kanzure:"Each output also has a short code snippet in a special scripting language called the scriptPubKey" (the special scripting language is not called scriptPubKey)
22:50:36amiller:thanks, keep going... pedantic or not these are good points :p
22:51:34kanzure:what? "transactions are only valid if they satisfy the fundamental constraint that the sum of the values of all transaction outputs is less than or equal to the sum of the values of all inputs" feeeeeeees
22:52:16amiller:we said less than or equall.... if equal then no fees, if less then fees
22:52:34kanzure:oh you did say this
22:52:37kanzure:this is true
22:56:53kanzure:formatting:"Block confirmation.The"
22:57:37kanzure:the use of the word permanance in a few places is a little strange.. if this is clarified later then nevermind.
23:01:01kanzure:"and is scheduled to have every 40 years"
23:01:55kanzure:"may have been unanticipated" farms were descried by satoshi in some email, but w/e
23:02:21kanzure:typo "(proabilisitically)"
23:05:23amiller:yeah the 40 years thing ive caught before and dont know how it keeps happening
23:13:18kanzure:amiller: regarding the fork discussed in the "Stability of transaction rules" section, the source of the problem was that pre-0.8 clients non-deterministically accepted/rejected those blocks. see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngju7f
23:24:03kanzure:"the need for rule changes (or disambiguation) means some level of governance" eh, i would accept maybe "local node-level governance" here, although not much else
23:25:02kanzure:although it's true that bitcoind is a popular and widely used implementation, i don't think that means it's "governance"
23:26:47kanzure:"have high confidence that they transactions are permanently included" again this permanence thing is weird and alien to me here, but whatever... i'm prolly the only one complaining, and an alternative wording is hard to justify as anything other than "confusing and unfortunate"...
23:28:33kanzure:"Correctness. All blocks in the longest valid chain will be correct according to the rules of Bitcoin." i think a stronger statement is required here, specifically one regarding whether or not a rule is a valid "Bitcoin rule" -- and your formulation should most definitely not be about "governance" -_-
23:29:34kanzure:"With billions of dollars now at stake, it is not sufficient to assume that participants will always follow the protocol as specified out of goodwill or inertia." one could argue this is also true of any amount of money, including millions, and not just billions....
23:33:24kanzure:i forget ubt i'm pretty sure this isn't there "In practice, arbitrary-length forks are prevented by the use of hard-coded blockchain prefixes shipping with the default Bitcoin client before which clients will not accept a fork."
23:33:52kanzure:(although there was a feature called a checkpoint that was implemented at one point in the past, it has since been thoroughly misunderstood in practice)
23:34:41gmaxwell:dunno how useful this is when we have concrete plans to eliminate it due to those misunderstandings.
23:35:06gmaxwell:That also doesn't reflect the motivation there; not to prevent reorgs but to prevent some specific DOS attacks.
23:39:58kanzure:re: "governance", the one governance thing that i would allow for is something about control of the alert key or whatever
23:40:08kanzure:that is definitely "governance", but hte other stuff is bogus
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23:54:12kanzure:regarding denial of service attacks between pools, it would be useful to clarify whether these are denial of service attacks from pool participants directly or indirectly (or both or unspecified)