00:12:14bramc:kanzure, That's talking about the same concept, but I'm comparing it to setups where minting of a new block requires two different things be put together, which bitcoin doesn't. Those have horrible withholding attacks, which is presumably why bitcoin has the random whole block minting setup.
00:22:26kanzure:meanwhile at the european central bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNSntgzcu48
00:32:19skittylx:kanzure: that music is so funny
00:33:14moa:it matches the inanity of the game perfectly
00:35:51moa:http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/03/03/2036241 ... anyone noticed safari rejecting certificates recently?
00:40:34skittylx:export grade lol
00:42:59bramc:moa, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QP5X6fcukM
03:15:46gmaxwell:Those of cryptographic inclination
03:15:46gmaxwell:--may find this hex does vex their expectation.
03:15:47gmaxwell:No system break is demonstrated here,
03:15:47gmaxwell:--but methods used may not be crystal clear.
03:15:47gmaxwell:If on reflection you form useful theories,
03:15:49gmaxwell:--or in confusion wish to fire off queries,
03:15:51gmaxwell:send thoughts, on what you found or you tried doing.
03:15:54gmaxwell:--And if this is a field you like pursuing,
03:15:56gmaxwell:you might consider joining several peers:
03:15:59gmaxwell:--we're hiring now for Blockstream engineers. (burma shave)
03:17:02kanzure:no spam
03:17:51rhadamanthus:rhadamanthus has left #bitcoin-wizards
03:18:02gmaxwell:(the material is relevant to people's interest here :) )
03:18:11kanzure:i'm just giving you a hard time
03:20:21justanotheruser:I don't know how to read that
03:20:38justanotheruser:oh, I didn't know gmax was a rapper
03:21:30kanzure:yeah it's up on rapgenius already
03:22:57gmaxwell:Yea, okay, I made a good call to not have the rhyme on the page... since you're talking more about that the the boggling signatures. :)
03:24:35justanotheruser:Yes I can explain #3. You have a massive FPGA farm
03:25:26moa:^^ first thought
03:25:41moa:and some steaks on the bar-b
03:26:11gmaxwell:justanotheruser: Estimate the work for that.
03:28:18kanzure:page 8 "the operation of the gold market is described by the following equations:" http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/ifdp/1981/190/ifdp190.pdf
03:28:28kanzure:(well, marked page 7)
03:28:54kanzure:"Equation 2 describes the law of motion for the total stock of gold" what?
03:30:11gmaxwell:Economists, hurrah. Consider a spherical frictionless gold market in simple harmonic motion.
03:30:42kanzure:i was hoping that central banks may have done some actually useful computational modeling of gold that i could look at
03:30:46kanzure:but uh...
03:30:53kanzure:i suppose not?
03:31:13justanotheruser:my best guess is that there's some trick to get a pubkey starting like that in constant time, then you bruteforced ~16^8 keys to find that signature
03:31:51justanotheruser:maybe you did it all in constant time though o_O
03:31:52kanzure:justanotheruser: my guess is that they would not give you a bruteforced public key. it's kinda rude of them to do that, i doubt they are doing that here.
03:32:58kanzure:"rude" as in, it's like asking someone to solve a problem but the solution is "well first you acquire an unreasonably large amount of computational power...."
03:33:04justanotheruser:kanzure: The trick is getting the key to have a really low value, I guess they would just leave the pubkey as is to impress us though
03:33:04moa:spheres are good first approximation to most things (except tori)
03:35:41kanzure:gmaxwell: i'm trying to figure out hte thing they should have studied about gold but didn't. for example, various physical limits to monetary policy involving gold buying/selling.
03:36:38kanzure:actualy i suppose some of this might be useful. still looking.
03:43:51justanotheruser:gmaxwell: out of curiousity, is this something most of the coredevs would know?
03:45:50gmaxwell:Well there are several things you might try to explain there, lots of people could just explain most of it out of hand. The rest, other than people I've /told/ I'm not sure if I should actually expect anyone else to say much.
07:13:43wumpus:gmaxwell: maybe a stupid question, but what is the signature format on http://www.blockstream.com/half-a-puzzle/ ? it's not DER, and there are three numbers, I assume R and S and ?
07:15:22gmaxwell:wumpus: yes, this is actually the (old) armory format, and it's R and S directly seralized. the hash is HASH256() with a 'Bitcoin Signed Message' prefix. (double checking the prefix)
07:17:01gmaxwell:my sage code in verifying it: hashlib.sha256(hashlib.sha256('Bitcoin Signed Message:\n'+'Nor this, given a bit of algebra.').digest()).hexdigest()
07:17:34wumpus:but the signature is *three* lines, what's there besides R and S?
07:18:00gmaxwell:it's just randomly wrapped (count the bytes)
07:18:33gmaxwell:for some reason it's wrapped at a particular width, which ends up being partway trhough the numbers.
07:18:53wumpus:unless figuring that out is part of the puzzle, may make sense to add some description :)
07:19:38gmaxwell:yea, I was thinking of adding a sage notebook that verifies them.
07:19:55brisque:cute. brainwallet.org produces that signature format but it can't verify it.
07:20:39wumpus:yes, makes sense
07:21:00gmaxwell:Thing I learned; that armory signature format was the work of the same person who did the 'encryption' used in the prior electrum release that was busted. The armory signing code was also busted.
07:21:54gmaxwell:(used a non-cryptographic prng; though that isn't the case for my examples.)
07:22:22brisque:* brisque facepalms
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14:43:39OneFixt_:OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
14:44:26kanzure:"Devaluation expectations and speculative attacks on the currency" http://www.suomenpankki.fi/pdf/SP_RP_1987_05.pdf
15:08:25instagibbs:I want to know the solution to the puzzle once this "contest" is over; I'm way too amateur to figure it out, but trying to learn.
15:17:44fluffypony:kanzure: that was such a fun read - someone should take modern whitepapers / research papers that are released and process them through an old-school typewriter font + fax machine paper
15:18:32fluffypony:(being serious about it being fun, not sarcastic)
15:18:36jcorgan:there's a latex add-on to add coffee stains
15:18:54nubbins`:fluffypony i published a 200-page novel in 2013 with a typewriter font
15:19:06nubbins`:people seem to either enjoy it or REALLY REALLY HATE IT
15:36:52kanzure:"In this paper we relaxed the assumption that investors have perfect information"
16:16:32wumpus:"in this paper we relaxed the assumption that cows are spherical"
18:17:13bramc:Okay, so collaborative mining is a bust, but it might be that having two proofs of storage in a row works better than one.
18:18:56bramc:Or maybe even three. Four is definitely overkill though.
18:20:26Eliel:bramc: the buster is the block withholding attack?
18:22:20bramc:Eliel, Yeah, using multiple responses to a single challenge to form a block is busted by withholding, but making it so that the second one has a different challenge based on the results of the first one has less withholding problems because you can't guess how good others's supplements to the first one are likely to be.
18:22:25tromp:bram; you sound a bit like that holy handgrenade scene from Monty Python:)
18:23:53fluffypony:nobody expects the Spanish inquisition
18:24:29Eliel:bramc: I think you can at best reduce it to being about as vulnerable to block witholding as bitcoin's mining mechanism is.
18:24:49bramc:I'll explain things more clearly when I have something which works notably better than my last iteration
18:25:22bramc:Eliel, not really, there are inherent problems when there's no extra cost to mining a fork
18:31:29bramc:At the moment I *think* that doing three proofs of storage followed by a proof of time can basically nuke the pooling advantage from mining forks, but it gives a bonus to withholdings, so I need to work this all out.
18:33:17bramc:The whole thing smacks into miner's dilemma as well
18:39:55zz_lnovy:zz_lnovy is now known as lnovy
18:59:54bramc:On the plus side, whatever withholding attacks there are on the back-to-back pos system, they don't result in infinite forks systemic meltdown
19:01:35brisque:avoiding systemic meltdown is always a good goal.
19:02:58bramc:So I may just run numbers, decide that triple-pos makes the chances of systemic meltdown very small, and say fuck it about the withholding attacks.