| 00:01:02 | phantomcircuit: | maybe |
| 00:05:53 | phantomcircuit: | amiller_, iirc he had a scheme that involved commitments to a future key or something too |
| 00:06:11 | amiller_: | that doesn't really seem necessary |
| 00:06:24 | amiller_: | phantomcircuit, do you know any keywords id use to search for his prior explanations of this |
| 00:06:41 | amiller_: | i heard it from him through a private and equivocable channel :( |
| 00:06:49 | phantomcircuit: | proof of publication |
| 00:07:47 | phantomcircuit: | found his bitcoin-dev email |
| 00:07:52 | phantomcircuit: | [Bitcoin-development] Setting the record straight on Proof-of-Publication |
| 00:08:06 | amiller_: | jeez i read that and it made no sense there |
| 00:08:30 | amiller_: | i think i got pissed off about some other aspect of that message and replied about it |
| 00:08:39 | phantomcircuit: | "If these commitments are encrypted, each commitment C_i can also commit to the encryption key to be used for C_{i+1}" |
| 00:10:28 | petertodd: | < amiller_> i heard it from him through a private and equivocable channel :( <- lolol |
| 00:10:35 | petertodd: | so I think you're making this too complex... |
| 00:10:42 | nsh: | * nsh listens |
| 00:10:47 | petertodd: | (though I stopped reading when you said "encryption") |
| 00:11:01 | nsh: | that is the wort part of crypto tbh |
| 00:11:07 | nsh: | *worst |
| 00:11:25 | petertodd: | first of all, none of this stuff needs to have anything publishe din the blockchain at all - what you're doing is making one-time seals |
| 00:12:39 | amiller_: | the encryption thing was a mistake :o |
| 00:14:28 | petertodd: | here's the single-use-seal code: http://0bin.net/paste/vLDRrhx-ALufTR94#DmA7QRjxtKebJ66MJfbQTrVYPUKC1khfdpWT8pdbZpJ |
| 00:15:45 | petertodd: | now, a globally unique mapping is basically to take that single-use-seal concept, and apply it to a merkle tree of some kind, e.g. a merbinner tree/binary prefix tree |
| 00:16:55 | petertodd: | now I can take the hash of the *single-use-seal* at the top of that mapping, give it to Alice and Bob, and whatever I close that seal over (including subsequent seals!) is guaranteed to have global consensus |
| 00:17:46 | petertodd: | of course, I could fail to give Alice one of the key:value pairs in that map... but I can't lie to her by giving her a different pair than what I gave Bob |
| 00:18:31 | phantomcircuit: | petertodd, forming a chain; but can anybody who has ever seen a piece of the chain identify all future pieces |
| 00:18:36 | amiller_: | no |
| 00:18:51 | amiller_: | * amiller_ goes to make some kind of illustration |
| 00:18:51 | phantomcircuit: | because you dont give them the seal |
| 00:18:52 | petertodd: | phantomcircuit: no! in the chain is mearly commitments to what txout will be spent, not the txout itself |
| 00:19:00 | petertodd: | *merely |
| 00:19:25 | phantomcircuit: | petertodd, yeah i get that |
| 00:19:53 | petertodd: | phantomcircuit: now there is a sublety there, which is I can't prove to Alice that I haven't added something to the mapping without making it possible for her to tell miners what txout to censor, but if I don't need to prove to here that a given prefix *isn't* mapped there's no censorship risk |
| 00:21:00 | amiller_: | petertodd, i think you could do that kind of proof using zero-knowledge proofs |
| 00:21:25 | amiller_: | prove that you know an opening of the commitment and it isn't the hash of any known transaction |
| 00:21:49 | petertodd: | amiller_: oh sure, but but I'm only an earthling |
| 00:22:01 | phantomcircuit: | :P |
| 00:22:02 | amiller_: | snarks are for chumps im into harder shit now anyway |
| 00:22:30 | phantomcircuit: | petertodd, that was my point, there's a set of people who know what is going to happen and they can get stuff censored |
| 00:22:43 | phantomcircuit: | the set can be anything from you to everybody |
| 00:23:03 | amiller_: | phantomcircuit, thats ridiculous |
| 00:23:04 | petertodd: | phantomcircuit: sure, but self-censorship isn't all that interesting |
| 00:23:10 | amiller_: | that's like saying Alice can censor herself by turning off her computer |
| 00:24:35 | phantomcircuit: | amiller_, maybe alice is a jerk and wants to watch the world burn |
| 00:25:07 | petertodd: | phantomcircuit: *her world burn |
| 00:27:18 | amiller_: | alice could have stayed quiet too |
| 00:27:47 | petertodd: | anyay, IMO the interesting thing about this is how it makes factom looks stupidly complex in comparison... |
| 00:29:32 | petertodd: | it's also nicely generic, and can be applied to any tech that gives you single use seals (e.g. trusted oracles) |
| 00:30:17 | amiller_: | i didn't realize there was so much concern about miner censorship of that sort of thing but i guess it makes sense |
| 00:31:14 | petertodd: | well part of the thing is by building systems where that's impossible we discourage people from even thinking about it |
| 00:31:26 | amiller_: | yeah agreed, makes sense |
| 00:32:52 | petertodd: | also, relying on a single use seal abstraction rather than the underlying proof-of-publication abstraction is better for cases where you have the indexes available... (shoot, I gotta finish off my reply to your email!) |
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| 08:13:26 | fanquake: | twice now.. |
| 08:14:10 | fluffypony: | fanquake ? |
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| 08:15:59 | fanquake: | See http://nullroute.eu.org/~grawity/startkeylogger.html |
| 08:16:01 | arubi: | fanquake, me too. 3 times |
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| 19:58:49 | elevation: | is there anyway to force double spend a transaction on blockchain.info and/or export it into a client that can?? |
| 19:58:59 | kanzure: | wrong channel |
| 19:59:03 | kanzure: | use #bitcoin |
| 19:59:13 | elevation: | thanks! |
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| 22:09:36 | phantomcircuit: | so it seems that removing the checkpoints isn't something that is viable (at least not without either functional fraud proofs or a massive performance hit) |
| 22:10:25 | phantomcircuit: | the smallest obviously safe step forward would be to simply remove them from the consensus path and only skip script checks if the block is int he same chain as the last checkpoint |
| 22:10:55 | sipa: | i would like that |
| 22:11:01 | phantomcircuit: | note this means it would be safe to have a single checkpoint instead of multiple |
| 22:11:02 | sipa: | #bitcoin-dev |
| 22:11:17 | phantomcircuit: | right |
| 22:29:04 | coblee: | coblee has left #bitcoin-wizards |