00:43:58gmaxwell:has anyone read sergios recent bitcoin development post and can summarize it for me? I read it and am not seeing the point-- I think he's trying to solve a different and much less interesting problem, but I could be wrong--, perhaps a different perspective may be helpful.
01:15:00bramc:Having met peter todd in person I'm no longer inclined to give his ideas which sound stupid the benefit of the doubt. Colored coins in particular.
01:31:50moa:bramc: are you saying colored coins are stupid?
01:33:36bramc:moa, they're like bitcoin, but accepted less places and with more dependencies (I suppose ripple-style backing of some other asset with them just as an accounting measure is okay, but a little silly because you need a trusted party anyway)
01:48:36midnightmagic:gmaxwell: 'assymetric-speed encryption allows 100:1 slowdown for honest peers to prove local storage to sceptical verifiers with pitchforks' plus 'gmaxwells proof-of-storage doesn't scale well for honest nodes that want to be superhubs for *hand-wavey reasons that ignore most-likely performance avenues*'
01:50:43bramc:midnightmagic, What proof of storage is this? Something about keeping malicious peers from hogging peer connections?
01:52:23midnightmagic:bramc: a way to try to ensure that a peer does in fact have the whole blockchain locally, it was posted to bitcoin-development by Sergio Lerner, and sergio contrasted his idea with greg's in order to facilitate 'easier' scaling up of the proof mechanism.
01:53:33bramc:midnightmagic, Is there a link for this proof mechanism?
01:54:06midnightmagic:bramc: as far as I understand it, it uses assymetric encryption using IP-based seeds so the verifier has an easier go of it and can't be as-easily attacked by equivalent horsepower.
01:54:27midnightmagic:bramc: it's the bitcoin-development mailing list. lemme find it one sec.
01:58:21midnightmagic:for some reason he is adding CPU cycles on top of the costs required for the proof, to save some memory core.
02:02:25midnightmagic:or rather 'and saving some memory core'
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02:46:07dgenr8:if it works, it sounds like challenger could gain confidence that a blockchain copy was built in expectation of a particular IP being queried. that would seem to stop storageless blockchain proxies unless they were supported by somebody with storage.
06:33:46bramc:So I had a thought today about anyonecanpay. The same functionality can be implemented on the signature side, where in a transaction with multiple inputs some of the inputs some of the signatures sign something other than the complete list of inputs and outputs
06:34:43bramc:The cases appear to be (a) signatures signs everything (b) signature signs just their input and the output, and my new one for today (c) signature signs their input and a list of other inputs
06:35:02bramc:and I guess (d) signature signs their input and at least one other input
06:35:24bramc:As in, they're saying a specific other input must be included in the list but not requiring it be the only one
06:36:36bramc:So really it's a single thing with options in it: Signer signs their own input, a list of other inputs, a boolean about whether there might be other inputs, and optionally the output
06:37:09bramc:the output can similarly be a list of outputs and a boolean about whether that's the complete list
06:37:45bramc:That seems like a good intuitive feature set to support
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13:48:12sipa:Muis: you can introduce a new script language as a softfork, by using an OP_EVAL like construct
13:49:01Muis:And that language has only 1 command: recover public key from signature
13:49:17Muis:Or how would the op codes look?
13:49:29sipa:tell me when you figure it out :)
13:52:15sipa:yes, that's the code to implement them
13:52:22sipa:the tricky part is using it in scripts
13:52:25Muis:yes thats all i need
13:52:32sipa:good luck then
13:52:43Muis:Because there are no scripts in my protocol
13:52:53Muis:So they all look the same
13:53:06sipa:what do you store in script outputs?
13:53:10sipa:eh, in transaction outputs
13:54:32Luke-Jr:sounds like more of a topic for ##altcoin-dev
13:56:44Muis:Just the public key of the receiver
13:57:34sipa:Muis: then how are you going to use pubkey recovery to _not_ store that pubkey
13:57:43sipa:if your protocol already says storing it :p
14:00:38Muis:Good question. But your scheme decreases Bitcoin tx from 133 to 65 bytes, so why would it work ffor Bitcoin and not in my case?
14:02:00sipa:i'm asking you to think how to make it work
14:02:12sipa:you seem to assume it's pixie dust that just decreases things
14:02:18Muis:" Currently, bitcoin txin's for spend-to-address transactions use a DER-encoded signature + DER-encoded public key, resulting in 139-byte scripts. Assuming we drop the DER-encoding (except for a version byte), we could reduce this to 65 bytes."
14:02:29sipa:you need to significantlty redesign things to make it work
14:03:33Muis:So i must limit to spend-to txs
14:03:38sipa:first of all, it just doesn't apply to your design
14:03:55sipa:it's inherent to how bitcoin's pay-to-pubkeyhash works
14:04:12sipa:it wouldn't work for pay-to-pubkey, which is what you're using
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14:07:55Muis:sipa: i can still change to pay-to-pubkeyhash, im just experimenting with a design
14:08:44sipa:well understand former design decisions before changing them :)
14:09:43sipa:you can't just say "hey i'm going to use this optimization which was described years ago in a different context", and expect it to just work
14:17:40Muis:Im just trying to build a fork of Bitcoin where each address is the start of a new chain you can follow, and each address in that chain is also a possible genesis for a new chain. I did this by mis-using the nServices field for a peer, so that each peer can indicate which chains it follows (by filtering them on the first x bytes which match their IP). And if
14:17:41Muis:you need the headers of chain X, you dont connect to different networks/peers, but there is a large chance you can ask your existing peers.
14:18:27Muis:Because there will be a lot of mini chains, just like a forum with topics, the chains need to be as small as possible
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14:18:43Muis:Thats why im interested in your idea to save space
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19:10:48benjyz1:hi. is anyone using RPC via Java with bitcoinj objects?
19:13:39amiller_:benjyz1, that sounds better for #bitcoin-dev
19:15:08benjyz1:maybe. in general I think core people could more engage with devs working on API's.
19:15:57kanzure:"core people" are in #bitcoin-dev
19:16:33benjyz1:kk. so how do I go about acquiring the wizards title?
19:17:28kanzure:the channel name has already been registered with chanserv
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23:38:42andytoshi:gmaxwell: adam3us1: can you guys think of a technical security definition for DMMS that doesn't outright exclude PoS?
23:39:43andytoshi:i think this "creating a block is super easy for the signers (who change each block) but impossible for everyone else" idea actually doesn't fit under the same umbrella as bitcoin's "every block is equally hard to make for all parties", but i'd like to be wrong for didactic reasons
23:55:49andytoshi:like, i've heard it said (at least in my own thoughts) that "pos is a broken dmms" but i think the mechanism that it tries to produce consensus by is conceptually totally independent of dmms
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