01:31:40maaku:since sequence numbers are basically useless, has anyone considered re-purposing them as a per-input relative locktime field?
01:32:19maaku:by itself it doesn't accomplish much, but if you had a CLTV-like opcode committed in the scriptPubKey it would allow a more reorg-safe relative lcoktime...
01:33:22kanzure:neat.
01:40:48maaku:it would be sequences that actually work, although they'd work by counting backwards
01:48:14Luke-Jr:maaku: I've considered making it a transaction timestamp..
02:41:50maaku:Luke-Jr: how would that work?
02:42:26maaku:that seems more a use for nLockTime -- you set a locktime equal to gettime()
02:43:59Luke-Jr:maaku: well, you can set sequence to basically anything
02:44:20Luke-Jr:I just mean in a sense of an opt-in metadata
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13:25:39adam3us:yet another proof of stake whitepaper claims to fix nothing at stake etc. http://www.neucoin.org/en/whitepaper/download seems quite well written and to quote the critiques of PoS, but I am not sure if it actually solves anything.
13:49:01tromp:"A plugin is needed to dispolay this content" :(
13:49:07adam3us:i am thinking the flaw is the assumption that the attacker can only grind 64-bits of stake modifier. i would think the attacker can expand the stake modifier to match his hashrate simply by going backwards in time or varying any inputs that may affect it (like permuting transactions or generating dummy transactions to permute)
13:49:20adam3us:tromp: i think its pdf
13:50:15adam3us:tromp: file NeuCoin_White_Paper-March_25th.pdf
13:50:15fluffypony:lol adam3us, I just had that same discussion
13:50:16adam3us:NeuCoin_White_Paper-March_25th.pdf: PDF document, version 1.5
13:50:21kanzure:adam3us: they claim that proof-of-work is wasteful. i don't think they know why it is wasteful.
13:50:25fluffypony:they have an entire section dedicated to preventing stake grinding
13:50:33fluffypony:except that they don't actually prevent it
13:50:56fluffypony:kanzure: because it supports their claim that "all criticisms of PoS are political"
13:51:06tromp:thx; got it
13:51:29fluffypony:just like "all criticisms of Darkcoin come from the competition" so therefore
13:51:54kanzure:ah yes, the "outside review is biased" argument :-)
13:52:17fluffypony:yip, shoot the messenger :-P
13:52:23adam3us:nicely written paper though eh? sounds exhaustive. i was reading mainly for the amusement of how many minutes to spot the break. had to skim a lot of exhaustive/authoritative sounding stuff to find the spot where it fails.
13:52:41fluffypony:it is much better written than most
13:52:53fluffypony:although I wish they didn't spend so much of it complaining about PoW
13:53:09kanzure:to be fair, proof-of-stake criticisms /are/ political. i am politically interested in not participating in broken things.
13:53:12adam3us:fluffypony: its a little accusative (repeated claims of what PoS detractors think) but otherwise well written
13:54:45kanzure:figure 1 is a whole wad of anti-intellectualism. "this data center generates numbers!!!"
13:57:30adam3us:kanzure: i guess you could make similar statements "this gold mine digs up little bits of inherently worthless metal". or "this hsbc tower in singapore is full of people adding friction to payments" etc
13:57:59kanzure:haha the second one :-)
13:58:43kanzure:"this skyscraper is full of dirty monkey men touching dollar bills with their greasy dirty fingers and adding friction to payments"
13:59:00fluffypony:tsk tsk
13:59:09adam3us:i skipped to section 3 guided by the contents page as i was going for skim & minutes to break
14:00:28adam3us:actually they are not very clear about how PoS works in peercoin nor neucoin. when they say stake modifier, does that apply to future stake wins after the min age? if so more directly i dont see why anyone would broadcast a failed grind
14:06:27AdrianG_:adam3us: are there any workable PoS designs yet
14:06:37AdrianG_:or at least something with promise
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14:37:14andytoshi:AdrianG_: this is the first one i've heard of that even acknowledges that PoS is difficult
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14:48:27andytoshi:adam3us: the discussion on page 14 and 15 of peercoin is really confused. as usual they conflate blocktime with clocktime and make wrong/incoherent statements because of it. then this "stake modifier" discussion appears to suggest sending information backward in time (which time? well you can't do this with clocktime because of relativity, and can't do it with blocktime because blocks commit to past
14:48:30andytoshi:blocks, so it doesn't matter)
15:05:43tromp:"The mechanics of generating the stake modifier parameter are complex." It should be expected to be sufficiently complex to elude the designer's ability to see how it could be attacked...
15:10:09andytoshi:yeah, i designed a system with exactly the properties they're claiming when trying to evade the first pos.pdf, then threw it out because it didn't work. apparently i should've obfuscated then marketed it..
15:11:29andytoshi:basically you can fiddle around and make stake-grinding N times as hard by making your stake modifier take N times as long to validate and be N times as big, and requiring forgers to forge N blocks at a time
15:11:45fluffypony:* fluffypony can't wait for andytoshi's altcoin
15:12:34andytoshi:which is thoroughly unhelpful unless your system was already ridiculously costly to run; if honest parties are doing almost no computation then a dishonest one can do billions of times as much as that
15:19:02justanotheruser:Perhaps they can come up with a stake modifier that has complexity such that the hours spent to reverse engineering grow it exponentially with the time spent designing it.
15:19:11justanotheruser:s/grow it/it grow/
15:21:12helo:justanotheruser: trapdoor design?
15:21:39justanotheruser:trapdoor software complexity :P
15:21:43fluffypony:lol
15:22:10helo:i think we have that here where i work o.o
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20:47:33gmaxwell:HOT DAMN. Microsoft Z3 theorem prover is now MIT licensed! (this has come up in here before)
20:51:48adam3us:well someone can apparently earn some neocoins by pointing out that neocoin PoS is broken. hmm does that is kind of self-sabotaging bounty model :)
20:54:22tromp:1 beeeeeeeeeelllion neocoin offered for a proof that neocoin is worthless...
21:04:08kanzure:we still need mental rsa arithematic
21:11:58MRL-Relay:[surae] adam3us, they won't ever pay out, because they "wrote a whitepaper" that "discredits all criticisms of PoS." And so, consequently, every time you criticize that paper, you're criticizing PoS and by the definition of the whitepaper, they've discredited you. They never have to pay out because they perpetually have their fingers in their ears
21:12:32fluffypony:SHUTUP SURAE, YOU'RE JUST A BITCOIN ADVOCATE, POW IS DEAD AND POS IS THE FUTURE
21:12:36fluffypony:* fluffypony sticks fingers in ears
21:12:41MRL-Relay:[surae] wow
21:12:51MRL-Relay:[surae] not the response I was expecting. :P
21:13:03fluffypony:I think every whitepaper should have pictures of mining farms in it
21:13:18MRL-Relay:[surae] i think every whitepaper should be scratch-n-sniff
21:13:29fluffypony:adam3us: what was your time to break, btw?
21:15:54Adlai:* Adlai liked the paycoin whitepaper, full of zero-day buzzwords
21:17:23gmaxwell:Adlai: zero-day buzzwords? https://archive.org/details/EtherealVerses
21:18:37MRL-Relay:[surae] what's that one website that has a repository of academic-ish bitcoin articles?
21:18:43prufer:i am unsure
21:18:47prufer:what's "MRL-relay?"
21:18:53Adlai:bitcoinobituaries.com
21:19:02fluffypony:prufer: relay to the Monero Research Lab
21:19:02MRL-Relay:[surae] Monero Research Lab
21:19:12Adlai:gmaxwell: nice, i initially misparsed the author's name as another with the same initials
21:19:19prufer:oh. weird. haven't seen that in IRC before...
21:19:21Adlai:might not be accidental
21:20:39gmaxwell:Adlai: it was linked in here previously.
21:20:48MRL-Relay:[surae] that bitcoinobituaries is interesting... didn't the Fed come out with a bitcoin paper recently? like over christmas or something
21:21:10MRL-Relay:[surae] they studied the inter-day volatility of bitcoin and actually found it was lower than other currenciess
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