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11:00:46adam3us:so PoS musing, reading andytoshi's new-pos paper, I wonder if political disagreements would become a problem. lets say an exchange is hacked, something big and somewhat clear that the coins were stolen. maybe 2/5 of the PoS users decide to undo it and give them back to rightful owners.
11:02:01adam3us:rest of PoS users argue that would break fungibility & irrevocability. as anyone can rewrite entire history any time at nominal cost, they go ahead and do that and now there are differing views of who owns which coin and no arbitrating function as there is no global consensus via PoW, which leaves sort of political consensus.
11:02:51MRL-Relay:[othe] that happened already in the case of "vericoin", they rolled back the blockchain when an exchange called "mintpal" got hacked which was later sold to a scammer called ryan kennedy who serves jailtime
11:03:11btcdrak:adam3us that exact scenario played out with Vericoin on Mintpal
11:03:42adam3us:isnt there a fair risk the PoS would fragment and collapse if no one can be sure of who owns what. once its happened over something like a heist, that invites increasingly lower barriers: scams, non-delivering ASIc manufactuers (scam? or just bad at making asics) and fake thefts where someone makes a good story of theft but really the new owner is legitimate and they were former owner
11:05:25adam3us:yes. it can happen to a PoW chain also if the control is too centralised (or that the economic super-majority goes nuts and does it) but the difference is there is only one chain. if you do that with a PoW chain (split it in half) either its the same network, and there is one true chain
11:06:02adam3us:or it splits which requires one group to make something incompatible intentionally with the one chain (eg transaction rollback not supported by hash majority or format flag).
11:06:07MRL-Relay:[othe] just imagine btc was a pos coin and what kind of power mark karpeles/mtgox would have had on it; thats enough to see how that stuff can never work out
11:06:41adam3us:so then doesnt PoS devolve to political money, which is the status quo with banks & governments, just now its with an assortment of variously trustable coin speculators, scammers and regular folks
11:09:11adam3us:you also cant very easily split the PoW coin or it becomes less secure and/or the forks can hashrate attack each other.
12:50:46adam3us:othe i think they sometimes try to separate the mining from the sale authority (two keys one for mining one for transfer) to reduce theft risk of a pos pool.
15:01:59kanzure:i believe there are much more efficient implementations of politically-controlled assets
15:37:36jgarzik:heh, for some reason, I've never given much thought to PoS pools
15:37:50jgarzik:seems like a lovely tool for abuse and power concentration
16:09:56amiller:any writeup about this mintpal attack?
16:10:14amiller:it sounds like it should count as an empirical demonstration of a PoS "attack" or consensus failure or something along those lines...
16:10:54MRL-Relay:[othe] theres one on coindesk http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/
16:11:00amiller:ah okay it's pretty easy to find i didn't realize how the hard fork worked http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/
16:11:11amiller:yeah that one
17:25:38adam3us:othe btcdrak its a great example. "“The community is clearly divided. Some think we are good guys for helping users keep their stolen coin. Others think we are bad for 'abusing' our dev rights to change the blockchain." ie just a bit more controversy or more devs and a disagreement and you'd have 2 chains or more.
17:27:31luigi11111:luigi11111 is now known as luigi1111
17:29:23adam3us:jgarzik: yeah i was a little puzzled by the idea of a PoS pool. however you have to be online to do the effort free "mining". so people apparently upload their voting keys to PoS pools (in some PoS chains).
17:37:58adam3us:kanzure: for sure (cheaper ways to make politically controlled money). its interesting to examine the limits of political control. I expect most PoS proponent would claim its apolitical like bitcoin
18:00:50btcdrak:adam3us: that just about sums it up. Of course smaller network coins are much easier for the devs to control. I am not sure something like that would fly given the size and diversity in bitcoin. regarding the hack, it's all very interesting because when you think about the incentives and game theories about how coin security/mining etc works, it's amazing
18:00:51btcdrak:how that Mintpal hack highlighted something PoS design never considered, they assumed people will use their own wallets to stake, but actually a vast number of users, rightly or wrongly use exchanges as wallets and therefore PoS based on % coin ownership etc is ultimately fragile. In PoW we tend to think of miners having all the control, but I think
18:00:51btcdrak:exchanges hold much more power as individuals because they are are the fiat gateways and if miners want to get paid, I'm not sure they'd be willing to play tug-o-war.
18:02:50btcdrak:adam3us, what I hope is that bitcoin can stay free from political powers not because of some ethos, but because we somehow build it into the system. a large network with many participants certainly goes a long way to diluting powers but I think we're a long way from it. Arguably interventions by developers that affected fungabilty would devalue the entire
18:02:50btcdrak:system so maybe that is a protection.
18:05:07btcdrak:adam3us but longer term I do wonder how long it is before governments want to intervene and have "safeguards" for virtual currencies. If bitcoin grows to the point of being "too big to fail", I am sure it will become a political issue.
18:51:08adam3us:btcdrak: i guess the interesting thing is bitcoin gets its assurance comes from apolitical properties. will require some thought process rewiring from the sorts of things government/central bank information and economic assurance programs focus on now, which being conventional tend to utilise political control as their mechanism, because thats all they have.
18:59:46Adlai:in the coindesk article about vericoin, isn't calling this a "hard fork" a misnomer? this is a deliberate history rewrite, not a fork of the consensus protocol
19:07:19kanzure:adam3us: many of the apolitical things are apolitical in a different sense. petertodd would probably argue it's all politics. just subtle and nuanced and in software instead of headspace.
19:07:50kanzure:adam3us: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/peter-todd-scalability/
19:08:46kanzure:although this is not one of his better arguments for why things are political
19:08:57kanzure:nevermind actually.
19:16:26sipa:there is probably a big difference between political "involving the opinions of people" and political "what present day politicians concern themselves with"
19:23:01kanzure:true; it's a little cringeworthy to see people only now discovering how open-source projects operate :-)
19:23:50fluffypony:they keep thinking of FOSS projects as "companies"
19:23:58fluffypony:* fluffypony is growing tired of correcting it
19:25:07kanzure:maybe we should just point them to old eric s. raymond rant emails or something
19:25:18kanzure:and black out the date so they don't go "hey wait a second"
19:26:50fluffypony:my favourite quote from the other day:
19:26:54fluffypony: When are crypto developers going to learn... "Soon" is not a timeframe. Don't you have any work experience ? Try giving soon as a time frame to your employer...
19:27:09Adlai:we don't black out dates from eg federalist papers, no reason to black them out from emails only a few decades old
19:31:45kanzure:"Scalable divisible e-cash" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/300.pdf
19:32:21kanzure:"Accelerating Somewhat Homomorphic Evaluation using FPGAs" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/294.pdf
19:33:04kanzure:"A quantum-safe circuit-extension handshake for Tor" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/287.pdf
19:34:02kanzure:"The Simplest Protocol for Oblivious Transfer" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/267.pdf
19:34:23kanzure:"Performance and Security Improvements for Tor: A Survey" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/235.pdf
19:34:35andytoshi:kanzure: you should start with some links on reading at 100000wpm..
19:35:01btcdrak:andytoshi: lol
19:35:02kanzure:"Secure Physical Computation using Disposable Circuits" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/226.pdf <--- neat trick
19:35:32kanzure:reading is not so much looking at symbols on pages but rather having already known what was likely to be said, then confirming they said it
19:38:17fluffypony:kanzure, I have a business proposition: I'll build, host, and maintain a website that lets you purchase tokens, reading a post costs a token. You fill it with summaries of all these interesting articles. We split the proceeds, I cover costs out of my half.
19:39:15kanzure:i read... a lot. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/
19:40:44kanzure:you'll have to convince me about summaries. you want something between a title and the abstract?
19:44:58fluffypony:something that can be read and ingested in under 120 seconds
19:45:20fluffypony:I think the value is not only in the summary, but also in the curation
19:45:46kanzure:right.. abstracts are often written for the wrong audience.
19:45:59andytoshi:fluffypony: i can curate using abstracts fairly effectively; but when i want to read something, i wind up opening it and leaving it in a tab in ffox for 10-90 days until i accidentally hit Ctrl+Q and lose it
19:46:12andytoshi:that is, the problem is that actually reading it takes a ton of braincycles even if it's interesting :/
19:46:14fluffypony:hah hah
19:46:57fluffypony:well that's why this would have to be written more from the point of view of "this is why this is interesting" rather than "an abstract"
19:47:02Adlai:* Adlai isn't convinced that separate summaries are such a panacea... what about annotations?
19:47:15fluffypony:why not both?
19:47:43fluffypony:reading the annotations cost N more tokens, depending on the length of the paper
19:48:15Taek:And then for the really important topics, you can make a lecture about it and charge N more coins
19:48:32Adlai:what would be really worth paying for is peer review of your own annotations
19:49:04fluffypony:lol Taek
19:49:46andytoshi:academic crypto is also really bad for being super wordy and yet still having tons of subtle gotchas, most of it is basically not human checkable (not that it even occurs to any of the authors that they should be machine checking anything..)
19:50:24fluffypony:andytoshi: pffft, come now, math can't even describe complex systems like weather or masternodes.
19:50:39lechuga_:same re: 10-90 day tab ttl
20:10:19Taek:It'd be nice to have more tools telling me which papers are really important to read
20:10:42Taek:mostly I just read whever I hear people talking about the most
20:19:33amiller:fluffypony, there's TinyToCS http://tinytocs.org/
20:24:25fluffypony:tks amiller