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02:35:56 | andytoshi: | this made me smile https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29675.msg11035598#msg11035598 (list of lowest blockhashes, in a thread about it spanning almost 4 years) |

04:17:28 | bsm117532: | Hahaaa given a sufficiently large random string of digits, It's no surprise you found pi in it. Also decaf is one digit shorter than c0ffee so occurs more often. And deadbeef is two digits longer so is much more rare. But I'm sure you know this. ;-) |

06:22:17 | gmaxwell: | sipa: yea they made their WNAF constant time in a subsiquent update from the code I'd been reading by adding a constant time conditional point sign flip. |

06:22:36 | gmaxwell: | sipa: it's still not completely constant time due to other (smaller issues). |

06:24:10 | sipa: | i read it has a constant number of iterations |

06:28:35 | gmaxwell: | Right. |

06:29:30 | gmaxwell: | Their code has a unified jacobian add which is different from the one in libsecp256k1. |

06:36:08 | gmaxwell: | It looks like 8mul 3sqr, so probably actually the same with the 1/2+2*sqr for a mul substitution. |

06:37:34 | sipa: | but you're talking about group operations; not exponentiation algorithms |

06:39:10 | gmaxwell: | ... Yes, I switch subjects. |

06:39:23 | sipa: | oh ok |

06:41:05 | gmaxwell: | Why would I have stayed on the old one! I answered you. :) Their WNAF is a 'fixed window', it always double four times and either adds or subtracts. The original version of it branched to flip the sign on the stored point for subtraction but the latest has a conditional sign flip (that I didn't look inside, but I assume is constant time). |

07:30:30 | luigi1111w: | luigi1111w is now known as Guest48690 |

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09:17:56 | agorist000: | agorist000 is now known as metamarc |

09:25:05 | metamarc: | metamarc is now known as agorist000 |

09:25:41 | agorist000: | agorist000 is now known as metamarket |

09:47:46 | nsh: | * nsh muses |

09:52:11 | fluffypony: | like the band? or do you literally have a Greek goddess next to you inspiring you? |

09:53:02 | nsh: | a little from column A, a little from column Beta |

09:53:09 | sipa: | or ARE you a greek goddess? |

09:53:16 | nsh: | rats, secret's out |

09:54:19 | nsh: | nah, i was thinking of some kind of system to cross-reference -wizards and mailing-list discussions and (a very small subset of) bitcointalk in various ways to try and better systematize the body of emerging thought and knowledge |

09:55:01 | nsh: | to create a more manageable ascent of mt. blockchain |

09:56:08 | nsh: | s/create/facilitate/ |

09:58:00 | nsh: | * nsh gets distracted epidemiological mountain-climbing analogues and parallel transport |

09:58:03 | nsh: | *analogies |

10:01:09 | nsh: | kanzure will hopefully have some ideas about how to go about creating a practical dependency structure for hierarchically-comprehensible complex understanding |

10:59:23 | nsh: | Information Geometry and Applications. / Background material -- https://nlsconf.physics.uoc.gr/sites/nlsconf.physics.uoc.gr/files/files/background_4_talk_ghikas_2014_01.pdf |

11:06:05 | nsh: | .wik Contrast function |

11:06:06 | yoleaux: | "In statistics and information geometry, divergence or a contrast function is a function which establishes the "distance" of one probability distribution to the other on a statistical manifold." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_function |

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14:05:35 | kanzure: | nsh: copy-paste |

14:06:29 | nsh: | for what? |

14:20:10 | kanzure: | that is the answer |

14:29:46 | nsh: | * nsh is doubtful |

14:30:59 | zooko: | * zooko is too. |

14:31:07 | zooko: | * zooko doesn't know what we're talking about, but is just doubtful in principle. |

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16:11:29 | Kwelstr: | moooo? |

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18:51:21 | pampuchy: | hi y'all |

18:51:39 | pampuchy: | i'm back with my sketchy kripto |

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20:32:37 | lmatteis: | guys |

20:32:40 | lmatteis: | is anybody here an academic? |

20:33:24 | lmatteis: | i'm an undergrad and looking for a research career in p2p systems. wondering which path to follow exactly (which classes to take, which labs to look into, etc) |

20:36:15 | manan19: | ? |

20:37:33 | kanzure: | uh well, here's some stuff you can read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/incentives/ |

20:49:54 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: i'm an acadamic, you can PM me for school advice, but note that i have a math degree and have nothing positive to say about CS departments |

20:51:26 | lmatteis: | andytoshi: and you do research in bitcoin? |

20:52:36 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: nope :) |

20:52:41 | andytoshi: | not in school anyway |

20:54:23 | lmatteis: | but you do distribtued stuff? |

20:58:17 | andytoshi: | still nope |

21:04:45 | lmatteis: | andytoshi: so what do you do :) |

21:06:16 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: in the bitcoin space i care about privacy tech; in acadima i do real analysis/information theory |

21:06:43 | lmatteis: | cool |

21:07:01 | lmatteis: | i have a hard understanding how to do research in information theory |

21:07:07 | lmatteis: | like, most research i read is experimental |

21:07:22 | lmatteis: | also, would you say the bitcoin paper is theory? |

21:07:29 | pigeons: | andytoshi wrote a coinjoin implementation, a treatice on altcoins, a bitcoin library in rust, an experimental client using the rust library, and a reference on asics for pow |

21:08:11 | kanzure: | lmatteis: also see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ |

21:08:11 | andytoshi: | lol pigeons, thx, im in rust mode right now and honestly couldn't think of what it is i do around here.. |

21:08:26 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: i've never heard of experimental information theory |

21:08:35 | kanzure: | "mostly i just read rust docs" |

21:08:38 | lmatteis: | no just experimental research |

21:09:41 | andytoshi: | oh, i see. lmatteis click around http://arxiv.org/list/math.IT/recent (don't actulaly try to read it, you'll never get out) to get a feel for it |

21:10:13 | lmatteis: | what i meant to say is that i have problems understanding how to perform theoretical research |

21:10:29 | lmatteis: | with experimental, you run experiments, observe what happens and report it |

21:10:45 | lmatteis: | with theory? |

21:10:56 | andytoshi: | oh, all that's cs.IT rather than ma.IT, http://arxiv.org/list/math.FA/recent is a better example of things that are actually theoretical |

21:12:07 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: you discover things that are true, then write down what they are and why they're true |

21:12:33 | lmatteis: | andytoshi: how do you discover that it's true without experiments? |

21:12:47 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: with deductive reasoning |

21:12:51 | kanzure: | greg egan claims that even someone just thinking about a problem is an experiment, so you're safe. |

21:12:52 | Apocalyptic: | lmatteis, because you get a mathematical proof |

21:13:01 | andytoshi: | how could you discover something is true using experiments? |

21:13:20 | kanzure: | yeah, aren't experiments only for falsifying possibilities? |

21:13:22 | lmatteis: | nothing is true for certain. with experiments you quantify how good it can be |

21:13:28 | sipa: | no |

21:13:28 | kanzure: | or s/falsifying/ruling out |

21:13:46 | sipa: | experiments are for giving your theory a chance to fail |

21:14:06 | sipa: | if they fail to fail, you gain confidence in them |

21:14:11 | kanzure: | yes falsifying is definitely the wrong word |

21:14:23 | nsh: | * nsh demurs |

21:14:29 | sipa: | but that doesn't make them more or less true, just more plausible |

21:14:57 | lmatteis: | andytoshi: what do you mean by discovering that something is true? can you give me an example? |

21:15:05 | nsh: | experiments are for collecting data. models afford for collected data to differentiate between hypotheses when there is a good coupling between the modelling and the experimental apparatus and reality |

21:15:25 | nsh: | but data is always collected |

21:17:18 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: sure, "if a schnorr signature is defined as (s, e) for s = k - xe and e = H(m, kG) for x,k,m,G defined in some way for `=` and `-` to be true in a field and H defined as some function, then given (s', e') calculated with the same x and k, x is uniquely determined by (s, s', e, e') and is efficiently computable" |

21:17:36 | andytoshi: | sorry, that was simpler in my head.. |

21:18:09 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: "if a prime number is defined as one for which no positive integers divide it except for 1 and itself, then the natural numbers contain infinitely many primes" |

21:18:32 | andytoshi: | also put a bunch of stuff about the natural numbers being a unique factorization demain into the "if" |

21:19:02 | lmatteis: | hrm ok |

21:19:24 | nsh: | how much stuff about unique factorization can there be to put in? |

21:19:34 | andytoshi: | nsh: actually the peano axioms will suffice |

21:19:49 | nsh: | hmm |

21:19:50 | andytoshi: | to imply everything you need, as well as that the natural numbers are themselves infinite |

21:20:02 | andytoshi: | and well-ordered |

21:21:06 | nsh: | well-ordering only holds as long as you consider only consider finite sets of the natural numbers |

21:21:14 | lmatteis: | would you say the bitcoin paper is mostly theoretical? |

21:21:24 | nsh: | (or does it) |

21:21:46 | Apocalyptic: | nsh, no it doesn't |

21:21:52 | andytoshi: | nsh: nope, well-ordering only requires you have a least number; it applies to all subsets of the naturals |

21:21:59 | Apocalyptic: | any non empty subset of natural numbers will have a least element |

21:22:05 | nsh: | i mean between set |

21:22:06 | nsh: | *sets |

21:22:08 | nsh: | not within |

21:22:16 | andytoshi: | i think that is equivalent to the axiom of countable choice tho, it's not obvious |

21:22:35 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: well, the bitcoin whitepaper is not super precise ... but yes, it is "theoretical" |

21:23:28 | andytoshi: | lmatteis: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1006.1095v5.pdf is something i care about, it's long but the first few pages are easy to read and well-motivated (for a pure math paper) |

21:23:58 | lmatteis: | only 12 citations :) |

21:26:10 | nsh: | andytoshi, on another note, i was thinking earlier about parallel transport on manifolds and whether you could use it as a kind of scrambling system -- by encoding a message as a set of vectors and the key as a route along some reference manifold -- but i think you'd need the manifold to be nondifferentiable or otherwise freaky to have interesting properties |

21:26:27 | nsh: | any thoughts? |

21:27:38 | andytoshi: | nsh: "a message" is gonna live in a discrete space, you need a way to embed it and losslessly extract it, or to think about manifolds that are discretized in some way, in either case thinking about the "security" of it seems really hard |

21:27:52 | nsh: | * nsh nods |

21:31:24 | lmatteis: | wow this is kinda cool http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/10/bittorrent-maelstrom-beta/ |

21:34:16 | nsh: | Security Applications of Formal Language Theory -- http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/papers/sassaman-jsys7-3.pdf |

21:40:16 | nsh: | (what i'm wondering is if something akin to a generalized pumping lemma can be used to put bounds on the potential for weird machines in programs and protocols accepting complex input) |

21:42:42 | andytoshi: | this looks really cool nsh, will read |

21:42:54 | nsh: | * nsh smiles |

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