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13:13:07gmaxwell:andytoshi: re your rust bindings and their coverage. Have you tried mutation testing them?
13:15:28kanzure:i was about to recommend ctypes but rust-ctypes does not look encouraging
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14:34:42andytoshi:gmaxwell: only in a couple ad-hoc ways (which were successful -- the tests failed)
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14:36:38gmaxwell:thats good at least.
14:36:44andytoshi:rust has a stupidly powerful macro system, i think it's possible to manipulate the entire parse tree, i should look into that..
14:37:17gmaxwell:mutation testing in C/C++ is a pain.
14:37:53gmaxwell:andytoshi: it also has a system for effectively adding preprocessing passes to the compiler. normally used for checks but I think it can mutate the ast.
14:42:04kanzure:one option is to convert your entire program to just a giant state machine with transitions expressed as uh.. well i don't know. anyway, then mutating that is easier.
14:43:45andytoshi:gmaxwell: ohh right, i forgot about that (and i've used it before :P). if you can't mutate through that, you can through the adding of attributes, so you'd have to tag each function/datatype/whatever with #[mutation_test]. that's cool, you can even add options #[mutation_test(...)]. i'll go make some noise about this in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
14:43:48gmaxwell:An AST is fine for that purpose, but in C the macros are not hygenic so you cannot get an AST without first preprocessing which turned the code to hash; so it's much harder to tell if a mutation that passed the tests was okay or not.
14:44:05gmaxwell:(and in C++ the parsing isn't even decidable. :P )
14:45:00andytoshi:one mildly annoying thing is that the parts of the compile where you can screw with the AST come before typechecking or borrowchecking, so you can't use any type information
14:45:15andytoshi:not that i blame them! i can't imagine writing a compiler that'd let you mutate such deep state
14:45:28kanzure:wouldn't it be more efficient to have a common non-ast-related format for doig mutations
14:45:50andytoshi:kanzure: possibly, but we already have mechanisms to mutate the AST in rust
14:46:04kanzure:a regular expression can be transformed into a deterministic finite automaton, which is just a state machine
14:46:36kanzure:(and various chunks of software can be converted or represented as regular expressions)
14:47:07kanzure:actually i don't have a way to clearly state this. sorry.
14:47:21gmaxwell:kanzure: maybe, the important thing is that you can make changes of varrious clases (e.g. changing loop bounds) without breaking the syntax... but also being able to get the changes back to the source code because you need to manually prune false positives.
14:47:22kanzure:there should be no reason to have to write custom mutation testing for every single ast implementation
14:47:44kanzure:oh pruning... hmm.
14:47:48gmaxwell:(though ideally the system would also have a SAT tool and so it could remove most false positives or avoid trying things that are provable identical)
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14:59:27fluffypony:some "VP of Business Development" from Chainalysis is talking at the Bitcoin Africa conference on Thur
14:59:45fluffypony:"Jonathan Levin — Bitcoin: basics and beyond"
15:00:05fluffypony:* fluffypony is definitely going to be trolling the questions section at the end
15:01:35phantomcircuit:fluffypony, im tempted to start a "decentralized distributed blockchain analysis" company
15:01:53phantomcircuit:which ships an "appliance optimized for queries to the blockchain"
15:02:03phantomcircuit:ie a 1U x86 server running bitcoind
15:02:15phantomcircuit:starting in the low 500 thousands
15:02:31fluffypony:this is also courtesy of the conference:
15:02:41yoleaux:Ricky Riccardo auf Twitter: "Door tix @ Bitcoin Africa conference: "only cash will be accepted". Bitcoin...you're doing it wrong! #BitcoinAfrica15 http://t.co/G66vzo8Etz"
15:03:51fluffypony:phantomcircuit: have you ever heard of CACHEbox? it's an "appliance" that is *literally* just a squid caching proxy + some extra bits (eg. media caching) in a box, for several thousand USD
15:04:01fluffypony:I think we should be in the "appliance" business
15:04:05phantomcircuit:fluffypony, so far the only bitcoin conference im aware of that accepted bitcoin was one intersango ran in london
15:04:26phantomcircuit:and the tickets were entirely anonymous
15:05:21phantomcircuit:fluffypony, yeah
15:05:24fluffypony:these guys accepted BTC for tickets (via PayFast, local payment gateway that added BTC support a couple of months ago), but then suddenly at the door you can't use BTC, retarded.
15:05:28phantomcircuit:there's a bunch of stuff like that
15:05:44phantomcircuit:fluffypony, ehhhh that's maybe not stupid
15:06:06phantomcircuit:currently btc is slower than cash if you're in person
15:06:11phantomcircuit:long lines == bad
15:06:35fluffypony:sure, but they can accept it as 0-conf, they can have the guy thrown out if it's a double-spend :-P
15:07:08sipa:phantomcircuit: pretty sure the prague conference in 2011 also accepted btc
15:07:10fluffypony:also this is South Africa, none of the locals are going to carry around $200 cash
15:07:20phantomcircuit:fluffypony, easier to tell them to step aside and go online to pay
15:07:34fluffypony:phantomcircuit: at the door it's cash only, no online sales
15:07:59phantomcircuit:fluffypony, not at all? not even on your own phone?
15:08:10phantomcircuit:sipa, ah yeah
15:08:15fluffypony:not even on your phone, they're stopping online ticket sales tomorrow
15:11:30phantomcircuit:sipa, ah yeah i remember that amir spoke there and intersango sponsored in some way
15:11:34phantomcircuit:(cant remember what way)
15:11:45sipa:amir was there, indeed
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18:20:51Relos:is it time for a restart? A bitcoin fork to incorporate all the lessons that have been learned so far?
18:21:12Relos:a proper fork though not just another "shitcoin"
18:21:39sipa:Relos: feel free to create one, and then convince everyone to switch :)
18:22:02Relos:I'm thinking more of a community level decision
18:22:08Relos:call it bitcoin 2.0001
18:22:19kanzure:it's restarted every block
18:22:46sipa:that is how you convince everyone to switch, by making a community decision
18:23:02sipa:which needs consensus from all participants
18:23:25Relos:well, I started the process, what's your opinion?
18:23:34fluffypony:let's call it...Nonthereum!
18:23:45Relos:I just*** started the process, whats your opinion*
18:23:58kanzure:unfortunately my opinion cannot be stated in polite company
18:24:21adlai:here's a politely stated opinion: why not wait a bit and incorporate a few more years' worth of lessons?
18:24:21Relos:politeness is stuffy
18:24:33adlai:or have we learned all that there is to learn about decentralized consensus in six years
18:24:39Relos:at some point we have to realise that bitcoin has some real failings as far as the masses are concerned
18:24:46Relos:and maybe a fresh start is better?
18:24:54Relos:I mean I don't know just putting it out there
18:25:05sipa:Relos: my opinion will depend on how useful, tested, and accepted your implementation is
18:25:11fluffypony:let's just have a yearly restart
18:25:23kanzure:Relos: you are inflammatory and boring... this is so far from -wizards relevance that it's gross.
18:25:24adlai:unless you have more specific suggestions/implementations, you're probably not going to get much other than polite jesting and impolite getlosting
18:26:32Taek:Relos: I do believe that Ethereum is trying very hard to do what you want. Lots of new features, lots of lessons learned, lots of community behind it
18:26:37Zouppen:isn't that done every time a (hard) fork is performed? learning something from previous lessons and improving the system. it doesn't need a "restart" in the way that Relos is saying.
18:26:45Relos:in my view, the main problem that bitcoin has is that it is impossible to safely secure "hot wallets" which are necessary as far as businesses are concerned
18:27:03Relos:thats how this downturn started and then bitstamp precipitated
18:27:43Zouppen:Relos: have you heard about multisig?
18:27:46jeremyrubin:Relos: Hot wallets are securable? That seems more of a user problem than a core protocol issue.
18:27:57Relos:you can't run a hot wallet on multisig
18:28:08sipa:what protocol changes do you suggest that would fix this?
18:28:12kanzure:this is not -wizards relevant
18:28:16Relos:you can't square instant withdrawals with multisig
18:28:38shesek:Relos, you most definitely can
18:29:14kanzure:that's trivially false: apply both signatures on the same server. done. horriby insecure but whatever.
18:29:17shesek:there's nothing stopping you from having multiple internet-connected machine all sign their part of the multi-signature transaction in real time
18:29:22kanzure:could you take this to #bitcoin please? and not here
18:29:23sipa:so, what do you suggest?
18:29:29shesek:.... or just that ^, yes
18:29:37fluffypony:yeah, this is more for #bitcoin
18:29:47Relos:jesus its so stuffy here
18:29:51sipa:are you here to discuss research ideas, or to complain that "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"
18:29:52Relos:no wonder nothing gets done
18:30:06Relos:all stuck on protocol and rules and sensless debates about things no one cares
18:30:17sipa:Relos: no, please
18:30:20kanzure:more inflammatory nonsense... yawn.
18:30:31Relos:you the one inflaming kanzure
18:30:33sipa:tell us what could improve things
18:30:40sipa:in your opinion
18:30:42Relos:why don't you just stay silent if you don't wish to engage
18:30:53zooko:That's what I'm doing!
18:30:56kanzure:silence is the enemy of good people
18:31:10Relos:lmao, this place was silent when I came in so, just stop reading
18:31:24sipa:you start talking
18:31:27Relos:now, sipa, before any problem can be solved one needs to first recongise what it is
18:31:36Relos:then whether something can be done about it or not
18:31:42zooko:zooko has left #bitcoin-wizards
18:31:45sipa:ok, what is the problem?
18:31:48kanzure:sipa: are you sure you meant start
18:31:55Relos:hot wallets getting hacked
18:32:10sipa:also some people are poor
18:32:15Relos:specifically exchanges
18:32:15sipa:there are wars
18:32:23sipa:very bad
18:32:35adlai:Relos: how do you propose to remove from cryptocurrency the need to secure your encryption keys?
18:32:35Relos:well, if that problem is not solvable
18:32:45Relos:you might as well stop working on anything else bitcoin related
18:32:46fluffypony:none of the problems you're mentioning "can't" be solved with Bitcoin
18:32:57Relos:because no one will use it if exchanges keep going bankrupt
18:33:09sipa:Relos: i think that problem can e solved
18:33:20adlai:this is roughly equivalent to complaining that cash is a bad system, because muscular and/or well-armed assailants can remove it from your person against your permission
18:33:25sipa:but not by changes in the core protocol
18:33:31fluffypony:standards akin to PCI-DSS can be created and enforced, and nobody will deal with exchanges that don't meet those standards
18:33:41Relos:the core protocol has a script language doesnt it?
18:33:46sipa:a solution likely starts with having auditable exchanges
18:33:50sipa:it does
18:33:56Relos:why is that so little developed?
18:34:05kanzure:have you actually read script-related commits
18:34:06Relos:I mean bitcoin is programmable money
18:34:18sipa:yes it is, to an extent
18:34:20Relos:why do exchanges not have the choice of, say, chargebacking a hot wallet?
18:34:35Relos:then the masses can choose
18:34:37kanzure:ugh. chargebacks are just sending a transaction back to the original sender. that's trivial.
18:35:04Relos:and needed
18:35:08sipa:sipa has left #bitcoin-wizards
18:35:16Relos:it's the only solution I can see to hot wallet hacks of exchanges
18:35:25kanzure:sipa: the more you leave the worse this place gets
18:35:29Relos:people still have the choice, they dont have to use the exchange etc
18:37:10belcher:what if the exchange does a chargeback when it wasnt a real theft?
18:37:26Relos:sue them
18:37:45belcher:how would this new bitcoin be any different from paypal ?
18:38:02adlai:Relos: please don't take this the wrong way, but have you read the bitcoin whitepaper, and understood the problems it's designed to address?
18:38:04Relos:why shouldn't individuals be able to choose whether to make their own address chargebackable or not?
18:38:07Taek:Relos: one of the primary advantages of Bitcoin is that transactions are not reversible. Institutions like exchanges need to adjust when working with the newer technology
18:38:22Relos:bitstamp can freeze your account anyway
18:38:26Relos:as it has done to many
18:38:35adlai:bitstamp is not bitcoin.
18:39:02ajweiss:i don't think a hard fork is the solution. what bitcoin really needs is a soft spooon.
18:39:06adlai:bitstamp is a few meat-people with a website and a corporate-person, and some bank accounts, and some bitcoin addresses. but bitcoin-the-system doesn't care about bitstamp
18:39:06Relos:bitcoin is not a dictatorship, why shouldn't individuals be able to chose whether to make their own address chargebackable?
18:39:12Relos:I was talking about the script language
18:39:19adlai:ajweiss: or a pointed stick
18:39:20Taek:Relos: you can make you address chargebackable, just do a multisig where the exchange has enough signatures to perform a chargeback on your money
18:39:38Relos:from my understanding, the script language works on an address level not on the level of the bitcoin as a whole
18:39:54adlai:the script language works at the transaction level, since "addresses" don't really exist
18:40:01ajweiss:truth be told, i think most of the innovation needs to take place above the core protocol anyway
18:40:02Relos:Taek you cant hotwallet a multisig if you could bitstamp wouldnt be dying right now
18:40:15Relos:multisig* a hotwallet***
18:40:34Taek:Relos: ??? why not
18:40:49Relos:because if you could it would be used
18:41:14Relos:you need the permission of someone else to withdraw, that means the withdrawal is not instant and the market won't stand for that
18:41:25ajweiss:relos: bitstamp uses multisig for their hotwallet
18:41:34ajweiss:they actually outsourced to bitgo
18:41:46Relos:ask, erm, what was that super secure exchange that would delay withdrawals, they never attracted clients
18:42:10Relos:nooo, some small exchange
18:42:16ajweiss:what is the difference between a delayed withdrawal and an instant withdrawal that can be charged back for a while?
18:42:30stonecoldpat:Relos: You need the permission of your bank today to withdraw any cash using your cards...
18:42:40Taek:Coinbase delayed withdrawals for 4 days for a long time, and they still got plenty of users.
18:42:43Relos:the difference is that the market wouldnt mind about the former
18:43:06ajweiss:they're the same
18:43:12Relos:the latter* lol
18:43:23Relos:technically, yes, but in practice they aren't
18:43:23ajweiss:you can't spend unsettled funds
18:43:37ajweiss:you either have x or you don't
18:45:06Relos:true, but I just think the scripting language is underdeveloped
18:45:18adlai:the scripting language doesn't let you unwind past transactions
18:45:27Relos:it could do
18:45:46adlai:bitcoin could also cook me breakfast every morning, if we extended the scripting language for OP_MAKEADLAICOFFEE
18:46:08adlai:but seriously, the concerns you're raising are ones better addressed on the level of people using bitcoin, rather than bitcoin itself
18:46:37adlai:i'm not denying the problems exist, but the solutions you suggest are essentially a return to the problems that bitcoin tries to solve in the first place
18:47:21Relos:on a convenience level, what problem does bitcoin solve exactly for the consumer?
18:47:41adlai:for the _consumer_? it creates additional problems by incentivis
18:47:47adlai:...incentivizing the delay of consumption
18:47:53kanzure:this is really something that would be better discussed in #bitcoin
18:47:58adlai:that too.
18:48:02Relos:that's not convenience
18:48:08Relos:it's good, yes
18:48:09kanzure:Relos: /join #bitcoin
18:48:14jeremyrubin:Relos: A meaningful contribution could be to think about fork migrations and what can be done to elegantly allow Bitcoin to modify the protocol without causing disaster. Try reading about what Tezos does.
18:48:41Relos:but... the hot wallet problem was shown back in 2011
18:48:47Relos:when bitcoin went from 30 to 2
18:48:54Relos:and here we are, same problem
18:49:09adlai:jeremyrubin: do you have a copy of http://tezos.com/position_paper.pdf i could borrow? that one 404s
18:49:32fluffypony:* fluffypony has a new addition to his ignore list
18:49:33ajweiss:i don't think the problem is the core protocol. the problem is that there isn't a protocol on top that encourages best use of what already exists...
18:49:35Relos:mt gox went bankrupt, stamp is going bankrupt, who is next now?
18:50:11jeremyrubin:adlai: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujmk1ejhvn1u8kx/tezos.pdf?dl=0
18:50:13Relos:obviously we can raise our hands and say nothing to do with us the blame lays somewhere else, but there is a problem here which MUST be solved
18:50:14adlai:* adlai wonders why this channel isn't moderated with the same iron fist as #bitcoin
18:50:22Relos:and in my opinion takes priority above all else
18:50:23adlai:jeremyrubin: thanks!
18:50:49Relos:for if this isn't solved, there is no bitcoin. Simple as that
18:50:59ajweiss:imagine if there was a way to write up all these complicated payment channel ideas and that wallets executed them on your behalf using a common protocol
18:51:25ajweiss:that protocol could change and bend without risks to consensus
18:51:35Relos:I wouldn't care if my wealth was open to the best hackers on earth who eventually will take it
18:51:51Relos:on an individual level I can keep it offline, eliminate that risk
18:52:09Relos:but on a business level, when I must have a hot wallet, as it currently stands being hacked is only a matter of time
19:18:06adlai:jeremyrubin: did anything ever come of this project?
19:21:56jeremyrubin:adlai: I think it's still under development
19:22:40adlai:* adlai has found only the low-SNR https://twitter.com/hashtag/tezos
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21:28:40andytoshi:hehe, in less than 100LOC i have a rust extension that'll flip all the if statements in functions marked #[mutation_test], except for those that are inside loops of any sort (since idk if there are any mutations i can do inside loops that won't cause them to run forever). it'll be another 50 i expect to have it dupe the unit tests to use the mutated versions. i love this language :)
21:29:17fluffypony:woah bro, slow down, 100 LoC is like 10 day's actual work
21:29:37fluffypony:* fluffypony pulls out his copy of the Mythical Man Month and bonks andytoshi on the head with it
21:34:23kanzure:no violence
21:35:05fluffypony:kanzure: with the recent SNR here we're going to have to have -wizards-wizards
21:35:20fluffypony:or just move the conversation into...*the blockchain*
21:37:35andytoshi:some days are just like this :/ if it gets to be an ongoing thing i'm sure we'll figure something out
21:37:50adlai:kicking idiots?
21:38:01andytoshi:more secrecy is not the solution; i (and some others) often mention this place on bitcointalk with the goal of finding more talent
21:38:16andytoshi:i also don't want to be kicking people because that discourages discussion
21:38:26kanzure:adlai: i don't want to kick "idiots"
21:38:45adlai:how about "kicking people who refuse to accept the fact that there may be a more appropriate channel for their education"
21:38:47andytoshi:it'd be more like requiring voice to talk
21:38:59fluffypony:andytoshi, I agree, but I think that moderating based on "this is more suited to #b-dev / #b" is suitable
21:39:03adlai:that works too, remarkably well even.
21:40:08kanzure:yeah, i think that is worth trying long before "tests" or whatever
21:40:22andytoshi:kanzure: well what is the criteria for getting voice?
21:40:31kanzure:right, before that too
21:40:37Taek:registered nick, lose voice for a day or 2 if you're OT
21:40:54fluffypony:but then why bother with voice
21:41:07fluffypony:just kick if the polite suggestion of another channel is ignored
21:41:08andytoshi:ehh that'd be selectively applied, there have been conversations here among even regulars about their childhoods etc
21:41:20fluffypony:escalate to kban if they come back and start babbling again
21:41:58andytoshi:i'm also uncertain that we (meaning the 20 or so people who are opped here) can reliably distinguish "babble" without creating a feeling of censorship
21:42:16kanzure:andytoshi: i think that's more of a social credibility issue. we let you ramble on about shrooms because we know that you will talk about non-shroom things successfully.
21:42:35fluffypony:andytoshi: it's not about the content so much as the attitude of the person - some non-wizards content is fine if it's labeled [OT] and generally nobody complains, but when someone wants to argue about a subject best suited to #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev (and then they ignore the polite suggestions they take it there) then moderation is suitable
21:42:49andytoshi:kanzure: yeah, and i don't want to institutionalize that in any way because then we're discriminating agoinst new people
21:42:52kanzure:JoiIto: welcome back
21:43:13kanzure:andytoshi: we should absolutely discriminate against new people, especially if they seem to be incapable of following the /topic
21:43:24kanzure:we should also discriminate against old people incapable of following the /topic
21:43:32kanzure:and the timeless.... especially them.
21:43:49fluffypony:the timekoin wat wat?
21:44:32andytoshi:kanzure: i don't agree with that, for the most part new people are friendly and even those who ask basic questions mostly "get it" and it's helpful to on-ramp them
21:44:35MRL-Relay:[smooth] maybe a bot where new people get a limited number of lines to talk
21:44:57andytoshi:it's only the people who start fights, won't listen, repeat things after being referred to #b, etc
21:45:15MRL-Relay:[smooth] ^ i.e. high volume garbage, not just garbarge
21:46:50fluffypony:yeah, so then a 3-strike rule for ignoring referrals to other channels?
21:47:06ajweiss:honestly i think you guys are too nice
21:47:36Taek:3-strikes and then you lose voice? In general I'm against kicking
21:47:49andytoshi:ajweiss: there is an unspoken policy (or maybe it is spoken ... i think it's from amiller_) that it should be basically impossible to get kicked here because we want it to be a "free exchange of ideas"
21:48:12fluffypony:Taek: the issue with the voice model is what prompts the person to be voiced in the first place?
21:48:31fluffypony:unless you voice everyone and then devoicing is "punishment"
21:48:35ajweiss:i get that, and that's a great ideal. but free exchange of ideas != platform to be annoyingly offtopic
21:48:41andytoshi:i don't want a situation where we are policing ideas, even stupid ones or ones that have been done to death
21:49:08fluffypony:* fluffypony clearly has a much shorter annoyance-fuse than andytoshi
21:49:31ajweiss:although i suppose the topic lines are somewhat murky and referrals to other channels can be seen as snubs
21:49:51andytoshi:idk, maybe we should be more agressive abotu OT posts. *shrug* but it really doesn't seem like a problem 99% of the time, it is just every few weeks there is a flood of crap like this all at once
21:50:29Zouppen:+v flood is a bit annoying, too. of course you can ignore them in irssi and other clients, but it's not that way by default. kicking is not that bad option, i think. banning is more like restricting the freedom.
21:53:08ajweiss:maybe a red herring channel #bitcoin-senior-management
21:54:28gwillen:ajweiss: ha.
21:55:31gwillen:andytoshi: so, I think it's important to have channels where people who know things can talk to other people who know things more or less unmolested
21:55:51gwillen:(not necessarily 'channels' in the IRC sense, although I think those are useful for this purpose)
21:56:08gwillen:it's hard to accomplish that while simultaneously avoiding cliqueishness, of course
22:01:02kanzure:how about this: instead of sipa or whoever leaving when they are sad about the world, you can have a bot that kickbans everyone except the spammer
22:01:10kanzure:does that satisfy all of your crazy requirements
22:01:41adlai:the knights of bitcoin require a wizardry.
22:03:55andytoshi:kanzure: despite actual wizards sometimes ragequitting for a day or two, i think the benefit of having a totally free conversation outweighs the problems. the shitposting has increased in the last six months but i still don't think it's to a point where we need to take some dramatic action
22:11:24kanzure:andytoshi: muting spammers and people incapable of joining other channels is not dramatic action.
22:16:03ajweiss:apparently there is a quaker irc channel, i wonder what they do...
23:04:29o3u:o3u is now known as Fistful_of_coins
23:45:15maaku:ajweiss: talk about quakerism and/or toasted oats?
23:56:19anthony:anthony is now known as Guest60260