| 01:07:14 | dgenr8: | rambling on... a node that is validating part of the prevout space would broadcast an invalidation proof for a new block that it found to have an invalid input in its space; to preempt everybody having to ask, which they would do, absent such proof |
| 01:20:15 | dgenr8: | could non-supernodes rely on absence of such proofs for validation? ramble ramble... |
| 01:20:53 | midnightmagic: | a.k.a. "I hope a validating archival node still exists out there somewhere." |
| 01:21:56 | midnightmagic: | proof-of-storage tests could be used to identify such nodes; the combination together could be a systemic risk factor |
| 01:28:08 | dgenr8: | sybil would seem to be the risk. connection count will be higher than today if you want close conenctions to all parts of the space. if you have only one connection, you ask him to relay everything to you. |
| 01:54:26 | kmels: | kmels is now known as nixrox |
| 05:12:19 | phantomcircuit: | seeing weird addr responses |
| 05:12:25 | phantomcircuit: | 91ff:fe70* |
| 05:12:27 | phantomcircuit: | stuff like that |
| 05:19:49 | phantomcircuit: | gmaxwell, any idea? |
| 05:31:03 | frankenmint: | phantomcircuit: no relation??? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35jcr9/block_355837_and_355839_no_transactions/ |
| 05:31:41 | phantomcircuit: | frankenmint, no |
| 05:31:46 | phantomcircuit: | not related at all |
| 05:32:01 | phantomcircuit: | probably some weird fingerprinting attack or something |
| 06:18:34 | GGuyZ_: | GGuyZ_ is now known as GGuyZ |
| 07:23:57 | frankenm_: | frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint |
| 08:04:52 | rusty: | rusty has left #bitcoin-wizards |
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| 08:05:16 | sinisalo.freenode.net: | Users on #bitcoin-wizards: d9b4bef9 starsoccer kumavis otoburb midnightmagic BlueMatt TD-Linux wizkid057 Anduck luigi1111 gavinandresen AdrianG BrainOverfl0w @ChanServ Oizopower gwillen kinlo sl01 STRML warptangent espes__ |
| 11:08:25 | harrigan_: | harrigan_ is now known as harrigan |
| 11:36:04 | c0rw|sleep: | c0rw|sleep is now known as c0rw1n |
| 12:28:19 | Mably_: | Mably_ is now known as Mably |
| 13:13:25 | nickler: | I'm creating a library of interesting scripts, i.e. scripts that trigger edgecases, by running afl-fuzz against libbitcoinconsensus. This is useful to test reimplementations and already discovered two hardfork vulns in btcd. See https://github.com/jonasnick/bitcoinconsensus_testcases |
| 13:15:37 | kanzure: | isn't this the same site with the guerrilla cnc guide |
| 13:16:49 | kanzure: | ... yes. |
| 13:17:43 | c0rw1n: | c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|away |
| 15:27:14 | nsh: | .title https://github.com/ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack |
| 15:27:15 | yoleaux: | ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack ยท GitHub |
| 16:12:20 | antgreen`: | antgreen` is now known as antgreen |
| 16:38:46 | [1]LeMiner: | [1]LeMiner is now known as LeMiner |
| 17:03:49 | LeMiner2: | LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner |
| 17:39:46 | crowleyman: | crowleyman is now known as crwlymn |
| 17:39:52 | crwlymn: | crwlymn is now known as crowleyman |
| 17:44:05 | Taek: | Does there exist any formalization of the idea that accessibility of validation is inversely proportional to the accessibility of participation? |
| 17:44:39 | Taek: | IE at 100 tps there's a lot more room in the blockchain for transactions, on a global network each transaction is going to be cheaper as there is more room |
| 17:45:42 | Taek: | but at 100tps validation is much more expensive and the poorer parts of the world might not be able to keep up, and are therefore required to trust the processes of the wealthy world to keep consensus |
| 17:46:17 | fluffypony: | Taek: there's a dichotomy in every "third-world" country |
| 17:46:55 | fluffypony: | like in South Africa, for eg. |
| 17:47:03 | fluffypony: | there are tons of poor people |
| 17:47:22 | fluffypony: | but there's a substantive group of early adopter / tech capable / disposable income types |
| 17:47:24 | Taek: | (I mean for arbitrary definitions of 'poor'. Poor could mean minimum-wage American, or it could mean A-round funded corporation - the line is drawn where people can no longer afford validation) |
| 17:47:39 | fluffypony: | so I don't think it'll so much be trusting the wealthy world as in "people in another country" |
| 17:48:09 | fluffypony: | but trusting people more or less known to them (eg. their boss, or the CEO of the company, or some guy on TV) |
| 18:16:50 | Taek: | hmm. A major advantage of the blockchain is the reduction of trust infrastructure. Right now, Visa, Paypal, etc. have a bunch of regulations, insurances, and general overheads that result of needing to trust untrustworthy entities. |
| 18:17:17 | Taek: | Bitcoin reduces this overhead using cryptography, justifying the cost of running a node |
| 18:18:26 | Taek: | I wonder if there's some way to determine the optimal settings such that total overhead is maximally minimized |
| 18:19:03 | Taek: | At some point I'm sure that traditional 'trust infrastructure' becomes cheaper to maintain than bitcoin infrastructure (eg 10,000 TB blocks) |
| 18:22:23 | Taek: | As you increase the cost of validation, the number of people forced to use traditional infrastructure rises, as does their cost of using the traditional infrastructure |
| 18:38:46 | Taek: | I think that, even when the cost of participation is too high for you, the value of validation is still high. You have access to things like auditing your bank |
| 18:41:05 | Taek: | Therefore the optimal tps is lower than the point where the cost of validation equals the cost of participation |
| 18:42:10 | Taek: | You want the cost of validation to be lower than of participation. Today, making a few transactions per month is cheaper than running a node |
| 18:43:19 | Taek: | Therefore, we don't need to increase the block size for now |
| 19:05:21 | zooko: | Does anyone know someone who's involved in the NASDAQ Open Assets Protocol project? |
| 19:05:27 | zooko: | I'd like to talk to such a person. |
| 19:05:58 | nsh: | (cc kanzure) |
| 19:06:11 | zooko: | kanzure: ?? |
| 19:06:40 | nsh: | did you search the mailing list archives for relevant posts? |
| 19:06:51 | zooko: | nsh: I did not. |
| 19:07:02 | nsh: | * nsh has a look |
| 19:08:56 | nsh: | weird, no mention at all of 'nasdaq' in [bitcoin-development] since i've been subscribed |
| 19:09:33 | zooko: | Thanks for looking. |
| 19:09:38 | nsh: | np |
| 19:09:45 | nsh: | .g open assets protocol |
| 19:09:45 | yoleaux: | http://ipv6.google.com/sorry/IndexRedirect?continue=http://www.google.com/search%3F%26q%3Dopen%2520assets%2520protocol%26btnI%3D&q=CGMSECoBBPgCAXIwAAAAAAAIaucY-PzDqgUiGQDxp4NL6TYAuvAjRjoMx83yFYZ_OXRZg_U |
| 19:09:53 | nsh: | * nsh frowns |
| 19:10:29 | nsh: | perhaps you can find someone via the openassets account on github |
| 19:10:36 | nsh: | or their repo contributors |
| 19:11:01 | nsh: | https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/graphs/contributors |
| 19:11:21 | zooko: | https://github.com/Flavien |
| 19:11:53 | nsh: | seems familiar. i think they have contributed to the ML or bitcointalk before |
| 19:12:28 | zooko: | Thanks. |
| 19:13:09 | nsh: | flavien had some posts in a threat about increasing OP_RETURN max payload size |
| 19:13:18 | nsh: | (possibly related to open-assets colouring schemata) |
| 19:13:44 | zooko: | *nod* |
| 19:14:50 | nsh: | http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/search/?q=Flavien |
| 19:37:36 | pigeons: | he has lots of emails about it in the "bitcoinx" mailing list |
| 19:38:16 | pigeons: | https://groups.google.com/d/forum/bitcoinx |
| 19:39:23 | pigeons: | all i remember is he decided to be a little lazier in his "colored coin" implementation than the other guys cause he wanted to roll out quicker |
| 19:41:44 | nsh: | well, per the 'news'buzz, it got something rolled out |
| 19:41:47 | nsh: | *he got |
| 20:31:42 | fluffypony: | "I now with the advent of 7petabyte computers one could easily store 2.5 petabytes of human information for just an instance of integrity not to mention otehr emotions." |
| 20:31:45 | fluffypony: | thus began emotional consensus |
| 20:32:05 | Adlai: | Burrito: 31 |
| 20:32:10 | Adlai: | oops |
| 20:32:13 | Burrito: | :) |
| 20:32:17 | Adlai: | sorry |
| 20:32:23 | Burrito: | np |
| 20:38:03 | nsh: | * nsh blinks |
| 20:42:53 | gmaxwell: | fluffypony: "and thus began the age of emotional consensus" has better flow. |
| 20:43:04 | fluffypony: | hah hah |
| 20:43:42 | fluffypony: | someone needs to take the Damian Gomez emails and make an Ethereal Verses sequel |
| 20:43:48 | fluffypony: | or at least spiritual successor |
| 20:44:15 | gmaxwell: | they're already markov ish, did you see my response? ... or his source code? it mixed some linux raid driver code with openssl bignums. |
| 20:44:31 | fluffypony: | lol |
| 20:46:56 | nsh: | wait, this is a real thing? |
| 20:47:27 | kanzure: | sounds like nsh hasn't been reading his inbox |
| 20:50:58 | gmaxwell: | I'd assumed that Damian was someone trying to provide some stress relief for the list. :) |
| 20:51:30 | gmaxwell: | because the aacraid/bignum soup can't be serious. |
| 20:52:11 | Adlai: | "The latest Tweets from Damian Gomez (@damiangomezxxx). Porn Actor & GoGo Dancer" |
| 20:52:56 | kanzure: | frankly i'm starting to become a fan of the "national shitposting agency" emails, but that's just me :-) |
| 20:53:00 | nsh: | * nsh smiles |
| 20:53:45 | nsh: | so has anyone audited this "open assets protocol"? |
| 20:54:08 | nsh: | https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/blob/master/specification.mediawiki |
| 20:54:35 | nsh: | are there any likely gotchas with the use of OP_RETURN scripts for smart-property trading> |
| 20:55:12 | kanzure: | well i remember their source code was cleaner than counterparty |
| 20:55:23 | nsh: | (because it'll get a free high-stakes security audit once NASDAQ starts trading securities with it) |
| 20:55:56 | sipa: | the hell? |
| 20:56:01 | kanzure: | iirc that news article was only saying an internal test of a private pre-market trading thingy, i wouldn't call that high-stakes at all |
| 20:56:34 | nsh: | yeah, i'm being a bit hyperbolic. they will probably not be completely reckless with it, one would hope |
| 20:57:03 | nsh: | 'In its first application expected later this year, Nasdaq will launch blockchain-enabled digital ledger technology that will be used to expand and enhance the equity management capabilities offered by its Nasdaq Private Market platform. ' |
| 20:57:32 | nsh: | so i guess this is a way for clients to get a private 'internal' platform for assets that need to be passed around within an organization |
| 20:57:33 | nsh: | maybe |
| 20:57:42 | sipa: | would be fun if miners started demanding higher fees from opreturn transactions, because they're likely valuable asset trades |
| 20:58:18 | nsh: | hmm |
| 20:58:19 | kanzure: | nsh: "nasdaq private market" is not the product you think it is |
| 20:58:26 | nsh: | ' NASDAQ Private Market is the premier equity services provider to private companies. Our end-to-end solution enables private companies to digitize, integrate, and control all of their equity-related functions, including cap table management, shareholder liquidity, investor relations, and capital raising. ' |
| 20:58:37 | kanzure: | sure, like esharesinc or whatever |
| 20:58:45 | nsh: | * nsh nods |
| 21:00:00 | nsh: | .wik esharesinc |
| 21:00:01 | yoleaux: | nsh: Sorry, I couldn't find article. |
| 21:02:21 | kanzure: | anyway, it was a little weird seeing so much misunderstanding in the comments today about openassets. yes it's true it's called a colored coin, but it's not physically colored satoshis and the protocol is not validated by miners or p2p participants. |
| 21:03:54 | kanzure: | does anyone have the original list of objections about mastercoin, omniwallet, counterparty, openassets, coinprism, etc..? the ones regarding protocol verification, storing invalid transaction data, etc.. |
| 21:05:58 | nsh: | (a cap table is essentially internal asset tracking) |
| 21:06:44 | nsh: | * nsh doesn't keep notes :/ |
| 21:07:43 | nsh: | probably worth getting some filfthy banker money to pay literate people to go over all the historical discussion and curate/annotate/cross-reference salient points |
| 21:08:42 | kanzure: | that's something that you could easily convince the anthropologists to do |
| 21:10:46 | nsh: | sadly the crossover of anthropologist and literate cryptoenthusiasts is pretty minimal, i'd hazard |
| 21:11:33 | kanzure: | specifically the cluckj user in here is a literate cryptoanarchowhatever enthusiast but professional anthropologist |
| 21:12:03 | nsh: | oh, cool |
| 21:12:43 | nsh: | i know a few other (gabriella coleman, notably, for free software culture) and some people that are interesting in digital activism, but not particularly technically savvy |
| 21:13:00 | nsh: | well, plotting on a logarithmic scale |
| 21:25:49 | c0rw|away: | c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n |
| 21:42:00 | nixrox: | nixrox is now known as kmels |
| 22:02:49 | nsh: | who is the donald knuth of cryptography? |
| 22:03:05 | nsh: | i mean, like, if you had a choice of someone to be trapped in an elevator with for several days |
| 22:03:15 | nsh: | and you really wanted to figure out the universe |
| 22:03:47 | sipa: | i am sure there many exceedingly competent cryptographer which i do not want to be trapped with in an elevator for several days |
| 22:03:49 | PRab_: | PRab_ is now known as PRab |
| 22:04:53 | nsh: | * nsh smiles |
| 22:06:19 | nsh: | i think the time-shape of cryptographic theoretical elaboration is unfavourable to their being any grand poobahs. too much of the fun stuff is 'recent', compared to vanilla computer science |
| 22:06:52 | nsh: | not that there isn't fun recent developments in the latter, but there is also a massive body of important results going back decades |
| 22:07:01 | nsh: | *there being |
| 22:16:45 | gmaxwell: | nsh: CS is full of forgotten good stuff. |
| 22:17:01 | nsh: | * nsh nods |
| 22:22:48 | nsh: | i had a vague intuition a while back it's possible to do a kind of platonic geoengineering using cryptography. that is, create a facsimile of some local region of 'actual' platonic mathematical landscape, but with differences into the computational proximity and connectivity between points, through the use of trapdoor functions and other techniques to facilitate the transport between domains relative to some parameters |
| 22:23:30 | nsh: | but it's so vague as to be almost meaningless. trying to find approximations to the line of thought at least, so know if i'm on to something or just being silly |
| 22:24:00 | nsh: | (basically a very ambitious generalization of kleptography) |
| 22:24:55 | nsh: | pseudorandomness is the key, if there is one |
| 22:25:32 | Adlai: | * Adlai does not follow |
| 22:28:54 | nsh: | so in the DUAL_EC_DRBG example of kleptography, there are some backdoor parameters that facilitate the recovery of some entropy from a bitstream because there is a different connectivity in the space of computation between the bits of the if you know the secret |
| 22:29:08 | nsh: | *of the bitstream |
| 22:31:46 | nsh: | so you have what appears, computationally, to be a uniform distribution, but actually has a subtle interrelation between the bits that, with the knowledge of the backdoor parameters, it's possible to recover the seed / initial state with a small number of bits |
| 22:32:15 | nsh: | (about 256 bits) |
| 22:33:49 | nsh: | generalizing this to absurdity, you can kinda conceive of being able to install similar 'backdoor connectivity' between arbitrary regions in a computation landscape |
| 22:34:07 | nsh: | (which is a handwavey way of thinking about how much work it takes to get from some information to some other information) |
| 22:34:32 | nsh: | maybe you could construct a toy natural number system where P is exactly NP for some subset of problems |
| 22:34:53 | nsh: | or some problems over some range of inputs |
| 22:35:14 | nsh: | but only if you know the relevant set-up information |
| 22:35:44 | nsh: | the same way CRS set-up knowledge allows you to 'cheat' mathematics in zero-knowledge proof system |
| 22:37:48 | nsh: | (dual_ec_drbg backdoor mechanics in practice: https://blog.0xbadc0de.be/archives/155 ) |
| 22:38:53 | nsh: | and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulg_AHBOIQU |