01:07:14dgenr8:rambling on... a node that is validating part of the prevout space would broadcast an invalidation proof for a new block that it found to have an invalid input in its space; to preempt everybody having to ask, which they would do, absent such proof
01:20:15dgenr8:could non-supernodes rely on absence of such proofs for validation? ramble ramble...
01:20:53midnightmagic:a.k.a. "I hope a validating archival node still exists out there somewhere."
01:21:56midnightmagic:proof-of-storage tests could be used to identify such nodes; the combination together could be a systemic risk factor
01:28:08dgenr8:sybil would seem to be the risk. connection count will be higher than today if you want close conenctions to all parts of the space. if you have only one connection, you ask him to relay everything to you.
01:54:26kmels:kmels is now known as nixrox
05:12:19phantomcircuit:seeing weird addr responses
05:12:27phantomcircuit:stuff like that
05:19:49phantomcircuit:gmaxwell, any idea?
05:31:03frankenmint:phantomcircuit: no relation??? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35jcr9/block_355837_and_355839_no_transactions/
05:31:41phantomcircuit:frankenmint, no
05:31:46phantomcircuit:not related at all
05:32:01phantomcircuit:probably some weird fingerprinting attack or something
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07:23:57frankenm_:frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint
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11:36:04c0rw|sleep:c0rw|sleep is now known as c0rw1n
12:28:19Mably_:Mably_ is now known as Mably
13:13:25nickler:I'm creating a library of interesting scripts, i.e. scripts that trigger edgecases, by running afl-fuzz against libbitcoinconsensus. This is useful to test reimplementations and already discovered two hardfork vulns in btcd. See https://github.com/jonasnick/bitcoinconsensus_testcases
13:15:37kanzure:isn't this the same site with the guerrilla cnc guide
13:16:49kanzure:... yes.
13:17:43c0rw1n:c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|away
15:27:14nsh:.title https://github.com/ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack
15:27:15yoleaux:ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack ยท GitHub
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16:38:46[1]LeMiner:[1]LeMiner is now known as LeMiner
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17:44:05Taek:Does there exist any formalization of the idea that accessibility of validation is inversely proportional to the accessibility of participation?
17:44:39Taek:IE at 100 tps there's a lot more room in the blockchain for transactions, on a global network each transaction is going to be cheaper as there is more room
17:45:42Taek:but at 100tps validation is much more expensive and the poorer parts of the world might not be able to keep up, and are therefore required to trust the processes of the wealthy world to keep consensus
17:46:17fluffypony:Taek: there's a dichotomy in every "third-world" country
17:46:55fluffypony:like in South Africa, for eg.
17:47:03fluffypony:there are tons of poor people
17:47:22fluffypony:but there's a substantive group of early adopter / tech capable / disposable income types
17:47:24Taek:(I mean for arbitrary definitions of 'poor'. Poor could mean minimum-wage American, or it could mean A-round funded corporation - the line is drawn where people can no longer afford validation)
17:47:39fluffypony:so I don't think it'll so much be trusting the wealthy world as in "people in another country"
17:48:09fluffypony:but trusting people more or less known to them (eg. their boss, or the CEO of the company, or some guy on TV)
18:16:50Taek:hmm. A major advantage of the blockchain is the reduction of trust infrastructure. Right now, Visa, Paypal, etc. have a bunch of regulations, insurances, and general overheads that result of needing to trust untrustworthy entities.
18:17:17Taek:Bitcoin reduces this overhead using cryptography, justifying the cost of running a node
18:18:26Taek:I wonder if there's some way to determine the optimal settings such that total overhead is maximally minimized
18:19:03Taek:At some point I'm sure that traditional 'trust infrastructure' becomes cheaper to maintain than bitcoin infrastructure (eg 10,000 TB blocks)
18:22:23Taek:As you increase the cost of validation, the number of people forced to use traditional infrastructure rises, as does their cost of using the traditional infrastructure
18:38:46Taek:I think that, even when the cost of participation is too high for you, the value of validation is still high. You have access to things like auditing your bank
18:41:05Taek:Therefore the optimal tps is lower than the point where the cost of validation equals the cost of participation
18:42:10Taek:You want the cost of validation to be lower than of participation. Today, making a few transactions per month is cheaper than running a node
18:43:19Taek:Therefore, we don't need to increase the block size for now
19:05:21zooko:Does anyone know someone who's involved in the NASDAQ Open Assets Protocol project?
19:05:27zooko:I'd like to talk to such a person.
19:05:58nsh:(cc kanzure)
19:06:11zooko:kanzure: ??
19:06:40nsh:did you search the mailing list archives for relevant posts?
19:06:51zooko:nsh: I did not.
19:07:02nsh:* nsh has a look
19:08:56nsh:weird, no mention at all of 'nasdaq' in [bitcoin-development] since i've been subscribed
19:09:33zooko:Thanks for looking.
19:09:45nsh:.g open assets protocol
19:09:53nsh:* nsh frowns
19:10:29nsh:perhaps you can find someone via the openassets account on github
19:10:36nsh:or their repo contributors
19:11:53nsh:seems familiar. i think they have contributed to the ML or bitcointalk before
19:13:09nsh:flavien had some posts in a threat about increasing OP_RETURN max payload size
19:13:18nsh:(possibly related to open-assets colouring schemata)
19:37:36pigeons:he has lots of emails about it in the "bitcoinx" mailing list
19:39:23pigeons:all i remember is he decided to be a little lazier in his "colored coin" implementation than the other guys cause he wanted to roll out quicker
19:41:44nsh:well, per the 'news'buzz, it got something rolled out
19:41:47nsh:*he got
20:31:42fluffypony:"I now with the advent of 7petabyte computers one could easily store 2.5 petabytes of human information for just an instance of integrity not to mention otehr emotions."
20:31:45fluffypony:thus began emotional consensus
20:32:05Adlai:Burrito: 31
20:38:03nsh:* nsh blinks
20:42:53gmaxwell:fluffypony: "and thus began the age of emotional consensus" has better flow.
20:43:04fluffypony:hah hah
20:43:42fluffypony:someone needs to take the Damian Gomez emails and make an Ethereal Verses sequel
20:43:48fluffypony:or at least spiritual successor
20:44:15gmaxwell:they're already markov ish, did you see my response? ... or his source code? it mixed some linux raid driver code with openssl bignums.
20:46:56nsh:wait, this is a real thing?
20:47:27kanzure:sounds like nsh hasn't been reading his inbox
20:50:58gmaxwell:I'd assumed that Damian was someone trying to provide some stress relief for the list. :)
20:51:30gmaxwell:because the aacraid/bignum soup can't be serious.
20:52:11Adlai:"The latest Tweets from Damian Gomez (@damiangomezxxx). Porn Actor & GoGo Dancer"
20:52:56kanzure:frankly i'm starting to become a fan of the "national shitposting agency" emails, but that's just me :-)
20:53:00nsh:* nsh smiles
20:53:45nsh:so has anyone audited this "open assets protocol"?
20:54:35nsh:are there any likely gotchas with the use of OP_RETURN scripts for smart-property trading>
20:55:12kanzure:well i remember their source code was cleaner than counterparty
20:55:23nsh:(because it'll get a free high-stakes security audit once NASDAQ starts trading securities with it)
20:55:56sipa:the hell?
20:56:01kanzure:iirc that news article was only saying an internal test of a private pre-market trading thingy, i wouldn't call that high-stakes at all
20:56:34nsh:yeah, i'm being a bit hyperbolic. they will probably not be completely reckless with it, one would hope
20:57:03nsh:'In its first application expected later this year, Nasdaq will launch blockchain-enabled digital ledger technology that will be used to expand and enhance the equity management capabilities offered by its Nasdaq Private Market platform. '
20:57:32nsh:so i guess this is a way for clients to get a private 'internal' platform for assets that need to be passed around within an organization
20:57:42sipa:would be fun if miners started demanding higher fees from opreturn transactions, because they're likely valuable asset trades
20:58:19kanzure:nsh: "nasdaq private market" is not the product you think it is
20:58:26nsh:' NASDAQ Private Market is the premier equity services provider to private companies. Our end-to-end solution enables private companies to digitize, integrate, and control all of their equity-related functions, including cap table management, shareholder liquidity, investor relations, and capital raising. '
20:58:37kanzure:sure, like esharesinc or whatever
20:58:45nsh:* nsh nods
21:00:00nsh:.wik esharesinc
21:00:01yoleaux:nsh: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
21:02:21kanzure:anyway, it was a little weird seeing so much misunderstanding in the comments today about openassets. yes it's true it's called a colored coin, but it's not physically colored satoshis and the protocol is not validated by miners or p2p participants.
21:03:54kanzure:does anyone have the original list of objections about mastercoin, omniwallet, counterparty, openassets, coinprism, etc..? the ones regarding protocol verification, storing invalid transaction data, etc..
21:05:58nsh:(a cap table is essentially internal asset tracking)
21:06:44nsh:* nsh doesn't keep notes :/
21:07:43nsh:probably worth getting some filfthy banker money to pay literate people to go over all the historical discussion and curate/annotate/cross-reference salient points
21:08:42kanzure:that's something that you could easily convince the anthropologists to do
21:10:46nsh:sadly the crossover of anthropologist and literate cryptoenthusiasts is pretty minimal, i'd hazard
21:11:33kanzure:specifically the cluckj user in here is a literate cryptoanarchowhatever enthusiast but professional anthropologist
21:12:03nsh:oh, cool
21:12:43nsh:i know a few other (gabriella coleman, notably, for free software culture) and some people that are interesting in digital activism, but not particularly technically savvy
21:13:00nsh:well, plotting on a logarithmic scale
21:25:49c0rw|away:c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n
21:42:00nixrox:nixrox is now known as kmels
22:02:49nsh:who is the donald knuth of cryptography?
22:03:05nsh:i mean, like, if you had a choice of someone to be trapped in an elevator with for several days
22:03:15nsh:and you really wanted to figure out the universe
22:03:47sipa:i am sure there many exceedingly competent cryptographer which i do not want to be trapped with in an elevator for several days
22:03:49PRab_:PRab_ is now known as PRab
22:04:53nsh:* nsh smiles
22:06:19nsh:i think the time-shape of cryptographic theoretical elaboration is unfavourable to their being any grand poobahs. too much of the fun stuff is 'recent', compared to vanilla computer science
22:06:52nsh:not that there isn't fun recent developments in the latter, but there is also a massive body of important results going back decades
22:07:01nsh:*there being
22:16:45gmaxwell:nsh: CS is full of forgotten good stuff.
22:17:01nsh:* nsh nods
22:22:48nsh:i had a vague intuition a while back it's possible to do a kind of platonic geoengineering using cryptography. that is, create a facsimile of some local region of 'actual' platonic mathematical landscape, but with differences into the computational proximity and connectivity between points, through the use of trapdoor functions and other techniques to facilitate the transport between domains relative to some parameters
22:23:30nsh:but it's so vague as to be almost meaningless. trying to find approximations to the line of thought at least, so know if i'm on to something or just being silly
22:24:00nsh:(basically a very ambitious generalization of kleptography)
22:24:55nsh:pseudorandomness is the key, if there is one
22:25:32Adlai:* Adlai does not follow
22:28:54nsh:so in the DUAL_EC_DRBG example of kleptography, there are some backdoor parameters that facilitate the recovery of some entropy from a bitstream because there is a different connectivity in the space of computation between the bits of the if you know the secret
22:29:08nsh:*of the bitstream
22:31:46nsh:so you have what appears, computationally, to be a uniform distribution, but actually has a subtle interrelation between the bits that, with the knowledge of the backdoor parameters, it's possible to recover the seed / initial state with a small number of bits
22:32:15nsh:(about 256 bits)
22:33:49nsh:generalizing this to absurdity, you can kinda conceive of being able to install similar 'backdoor connectivity' between arbitrary regions in a computation landscape
22:34:07nsh:(which is a handwavey way of thinking about how much work it takes to get from some information to some other information)
22:34:32nsh:maybe you could construct a toy natural number system where P is exactly NP for some subset of problems
22:34:53nsh:or some problems over some range of inputs
22:35:14nsh:but only if you know the relevant set-up information
22:35:44nsh:the same way CRS set-up knowledge allows you to 'cheat' mathematics in zero-knowledge proof system
22:37:48nsh:(dual_ec_drbg backdoor mechanics in practice: https://blog.0xbadc0de.be/archives/155 )
22:38:53nsh:and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulg_AHBOIQU