01:27:15NewLiberty__:NewLiberty__ is now known as NewLiberty
01:58:40Adlai:Adlai is now known as adlai
02:56:47nullbyte:have the old -wizards logs from wpsoftware disappeared? i'm sadly seeing 404's on access :(
03:26:57frankenm_:frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint
05:14:31merlincorey:/w 17
07:38:13amincd:phantomcircuit: if you have any sources that confirm these are Bitcoin's security assumptions, I'd appreciate it: "to maintain the security model under which bitcoin operates ... the economic majority must run full validating nodes"
07:39:03amincd:I looked through the white paper and there's nothing about the economic majority runing a full validating. I don't see why the majority of the economic majority couldn't rely on a trusted third party for validation
07:40:38amincd:and they do not even have to trust a TTP: just the 'honesty' of the hashing majority
07:41:28amincd:s/runing a full validating/running a full validating node/
07:41:48phantomcircuit:amincd, re-read it
07:42:18phantomcircuit:try the second sentence
07:43:41amincd:Trusting the hashing majority IS Bitcoin's model
07:45:35phantomcircuit:amincd, ... bitcoin has an incentives model to compel the hashing majority to do what the full nodes want
07:47:43amincd:to do what the economic majority wants..
07:47:53phantomcircuit:and there you go
07:47:55phantomcircuit:full circle
07:48:15amincd:that's only if you accept some assumptions that you're making
07:57:37amincd:namely that an individual cannot get actionable information about miner misconduct without running their own full node
08:04:42amincd:the idea of everyone running a validating node so that they don't have to trust anyone for anything is an absolutist security model, which is a departure from Bitcoin's probabilistic security model. It's highly improbable that information about miner collusion to subvert the rules of Bitcoin won't rapidly find it's way to every corner of the economic majority
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:topic is: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andy-logbot p15 hsvcr antanst arubi KuDeTa gill3s amincd b_lumenkraft p15x hktud0 ThomasV mpmcsweeney priidu OneFixt Logicwax Mably hashtag helo DrWat [7] kmels Dr-G contrapumpkin airbreather dansmith_ metamarc Emcy d1ggy DougieBot5000 nullbyte antgreen luny` ebfull stonecoldpat bliljerk_ gielbier go1111111 melvster fanquake LeMiner bedeho2 Tiraspol waxwing adlai GAit CodeShark azariah harrow tromp_ ttttemp prodatalab bosma cryptowest_
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: justanotheruser s23ioj234i cfields felipelalli1 PRab isis williamdunne aakselrod catlasshrugged_ jmcn scoria andytoshi warptangent MoALTz harrigan Madars PaulCapestany rustyn sparetire davout comboy TD-Linux yorick crescend1 dardasaba___ veox Alanius mm_1 theymos corw|zZz Zouppen null_radix huseby sipa cdecker hulkhogan_ _whitelogger yrashk wumpus HM binaryatrocity heath BananaLotus ir2ivps5 wiz Guest22136 face_ Luke-Jr grandmaster michagogo
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: amiller Apocalyptic kyuupichan [d__d] NeatBasis optimator mkarrer Eliel gnusha tromp spinza narwh4l lmatteis wizkid057 cluckj koshii bsm117532 mr_burdell kanzure xabbix iddo mariorz epscy vonzipper catcow a5m0_ smooth dignork pollux-bts runeks coryfields CryptoGoon Sqt poggy jbenet platinuum adams__ livegnik K1773R nsh petertodd brand0 richardus nephyrin phedny so phantomcircuit afdudley jonasschnelli pigeons SwedFTP guruvan Meeh lnovy ajweiss
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: nanotube forrestv artifexd mappum mikolalysenko Muis warren gmaxwell weex_ Xzibit17 GreenIsMyPepper sdaftuar eric roasbeef s1w CryptOprah dasource Taek morcos nickler EasyAt Iriez merlincorey [ace] sturles berndj jaromil Graet indolering Keefe larraboj ryan-c jessepollak gribble d9b4bef9 starsoccer kumavis otoburb midnightmagic BlueMatt Anduck luigi1111 gavinandresen AdrianG espes__ STRML sl01 kinlo gwillen Oizopower @ChanServ BrainOverfl0w
08:05:17weber.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: deego dgenr8 se3000 Jaamg yoleaux Fistful_of_Coins fluffypony btcdrak elastoma SubCreative sadoshi lmacken sneak mengine throughnothing_ Krellan_ leakypat
08:06:52gmaxwell:gmaxwell has left #bitcoin-wizards
09:04:42smooth:amincd: the whitepaper says "One strategy to protect against this would be to accept alerts from network nodes when they detect an invalid block, prompting the user's software to download the full block and alerted transactions to confirm the inconsistency" but no such mechanism exists
09:04:58smooth:there is nothing probabilistic about verification
09:05:30smooth:you're confusing the mining part of the system with the entire system
09:11:23amincd:True, verification is not probabilistic, but Bitcoin's overall security model rests primarily on the probabilistic security provided by the cumulative proof of work generated by miners
09:11:41amincd:^ smooth
09:12:34amincd:SPV clients take the principle of relying on probable security even further
09:18:38smooth:amincd: i would ask you the same question you asked: Where does it say that the "security model" relies on PoW. PoW is used to determine ordering of transactions, but "security model" is a bit more than that
09:23:13amincd:smooth: it does rely more than just on PoW, but it relies primarily on the probability that the accumulation of PoW provides that a block will not be replaced as new blocks are generated on top of it, and this in turn relies on the probability that >50% of the network hashrate will be honest. As for where in the white paper it says it: "We will show later that the probability of a slower attacker catching up diminishes expon
09:24:09smooth:amincd: where does it say "primarily"? That is your opinion, in my opinion
09:24:30amincd:smooth: well, I can't argue with your opinion
09:24:36smooth:it relies ENTIRELY on PoW to determine ordering
09:25:19smooth:as for the rest, im not so sure. For exapmple, the inability of others to spend my coins is not reliant on PoW, it is reliant on signatures
09:26:22amincd:smooth: true, but for the sake of simplicity, I left that out, as the security of signing is orthogonal to the ease of running a full node
09:27:40amincd:smooth: maybe I've over stating the relative importance of PoW's probabilistic security to Bitcoin's overall security model, but it is undoubtedly an essential part of it
09:28:43smooth:amincd: certainly it is essential, but saying "primarily" or minimizing other elements such as independent verifiability, I'm just not sure the basis of that
09:32:59amincd:smooth: I'll grant that the notion that it's "primarily" based on PoW is arguable.
10:36:02corw|zZz:corw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
11:59:39luny`:luny` is now known as luny
14:00:18Tiraspol3:Tiraspol3 is now known as Tiraspol
14:57:33b_lumenkraft_:b_lumenkraft_ is now known as b_lumenkraft
15:04:03Guest25312:Guest25312 is now known as deego
15:04:33deego:deego is now known as Guest71799
15:05:33Guest71799:Guest71799 is now known as deego
15:44:51contrapumpkin:contrapumpkin is now known as copumpkin
16:51:19antanst:antanst has left #bitcoin-wizards
18:01:16null_rad-:null_rad- is now known as null_radix
18:35:01Guest22136:Guest22136 is now known as maaku
18:45:55belcher_:belcher_ is now known as belcher
19:00:10dgenr8:when I receive a payment, I decide what chain to look at for confirmation. my decision is quite important to the person who paid me, my running a full node is not material to him, and it's my decision how material it is to me
20:51:35frankenm_:frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint_
21:04:53wallet42:wallet42 is now known as Guest99033
21:04:53wallet421:wallet421 is now known as wallet42