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16:23:39Taek:One of the big things I don't like about merged mining + sidechains is that the security model is much weaker if your chain isn't funding the majority of the mining
16:24:22Taek:And one of the problems with larger blocks is that validating becomes expensive
16:25:09Taek:One of the ways to approach this problem is to have 20 parallel utxo sets in the blockchain
16:25:18Taek:each set permitted 1mb of transactions in each block
16:25:38Taek:and some form of sidechains implementation to move coins between the utxo sets
16:26:07Taek:You end up with 20mb as the maximum blockchain size, but people can now hold all of their coins in only 1 of the 20 sets
16:26:21Taek:and then they can validate that set and ignore all of the others
16:26:39Taek:The improvement to merge mining comes in from a new consensus rule
16:27:26Taek:once a valid set of transactions is in a 20mb block, it can't be reorg'd unless you completely reorg the whole system
16:27:46Taek:so, instead of 20 blockchains, it's just 1 blockchain, but with 20 utxo sets
16:28:05Taek:Since you are only validating 1 set, there's a chance that the other sets have invalid transactions
16:28:37Taek:if a block appears that has invalid transactions for your utxo set, you just ignore the transactions for that set
16:28:44Taek:but the block as a whole is still valid
16:29:33Taek:this makes SPV trickier to implement, but I think it's still possible to have SPV nodes (you might need an additional consensus rule about miners committing to which prior blocks have been valid)
16:30:21Taek:There might be a way to improve on everyone needing to d/l the 20mb blocks as well
16:30:27zooko:Hiya Taek! Nice to meet you IRL.
16:30:47Taek:hey zooko! I enjoyed chatting
16:31:28Taek:The only reason that you need to d/l the whole block is to be certain that none of the data is being withheld
16:31:49Taek:as the security model breaks if someone can hide a valid portion of the chain
16:32:37Taek:Previous discussions with gmaxwell suggest that there might be ways to avoid needing to download the entire 20mb block while still having high certainty that no data is being withheld
16:57:35Taek:I'm curious if the above idea is something worth putting on the mailing list
17:58:21Luke-Jr:zooko: so is this a Zerocash softfork? (was Zerocash actually released in some form?)
18:27:39kanzure_:kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
18:54:58theymos:Taek: That's a bit like tree chains, isn't it?
18:56:15theymos:Taek: I'm also not confident that merge-mined sidechains will be particularly useful if any big Bitcoin pool can destroy them at will almost for free.
18:56:58kanzure:well they are giving up the opportunity to mine for other things during that time
18:57:07kanzure:i mean during the time that they are attacking
18:57:14kanzure:(depending on how weak the target is)
18:58:12Taek:it's not a huge sacrifice though, b/c they are still getting the rewards from the majority chain. It's even more significant if they can merge-mine many chains at once.
18:58:36Taek:then their only opportunity cost is the reward on the chain they are attacking
19:02:59kanzure:they only get the rewards from the majority chain if they are actively mining
19:03:26kanzure:oh merge-mining an attack? hm
19:05:04Taek:especially if you're including behaviors like bribes, a coin with a very small reward doesn't require much of a bribe to convince a pool to attack-mine or just not mine.
19:08:16Taek:that ceases to be a problem in my 'merged block' scheme, because reorging any set of transactions requires reorging every set of transactions - you lose out on the rewards of the majority chain as well as the rewards on the minority chain
19:17:06theymos:Instead of doing PoW on sidechains, I wonder if you could do something like this: After creating a new sidechain block without any PoW, broadcast or mine a transaction on the Bitcoin network with an OP_RETURN output containing some sidechain-identifying leading info and the sidechain block hash. The real next block in the sidechain is the first such transaction listed in a Bitcoin block. The Bit
19:17:06theymos:coin network already keeps track of ordering, so don't allow reorgs on the sidechain without reorgs on the Bitcoin chain.
19:19:17Taek:what is the sidechain identifying leading info? That is very important
19:19:43Taek:If it's just a hash, someone could hide a different reorg in the bitcoin chain, and then reveal it
19:20:13Taek:if there's some identifying prefix, someone could release a prefix followed by a nonsense hash, and you have to figure out how to choose which entries to ignore
19:21:31theymos:Ah, good point.
19:23:09theymos:Maybe this particular idea doesn't work then, but I feel like if possible it'd be better to do sidechain-type stuff without any additional PoW (including merged mining) by attaching sidechain stuff more tightly to Bitcoin blocks, in this general vein.
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19:48:01fluffypony:theymos: that's basically what we're going to do be doing with some of the Monero daughter-chains, no coinbase and more tightly coupled to the mainchain, with nodes being able to advertise what additional chains they serve
19:48:35fluffypony:but then it's less of an "anyone can make a chain!" thing, and more of a "hallowed be thy blessed other-chains"
21:12:04Luke-Jr:fluffypony: Monero daughter-chains for Bitcoin, or within Monero?
21:13:12Luke-Jr:theymos: also to consider, what if it's an invalid sidechain block
21:22:19fluffypony:Luke-Jr: within Monero