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08:58:40nsh: fod, thanks. however that doesn't seem to go beyond what's already shown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_curve#Equivalence_with_twisted_Edwards_curves . I'm looking for a way to directly convert projective Twisted Edwards to/from to projective Montgomery, ideally without field inversions. My plan is to convert to montgomery, do scalar multiplication with its arithmetic and convert back to twisted edwards in the end.
08:58:41nsh: nsh, is there a more appropriate for ECC related questions?
08:58:53nsh: but djb, et al. use affine coordinates there, which is probably okay if you're interested in showing the birational equivalence...however in practice for performance reason most use projective coordinates, also shown in the paper for twisted Edards, and X/Z coordinates for Montgomery curves
09:00:02nsh:all seems relatively well-discussed here: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/14957/how-do-i-convert-the-definition-of-e-521-into-a-curve-definition-a-la-bouncy-cas
09:00:16nsh:assuming you read moonmath at an elementary level
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13:08:20CoinMuncher:Possibly interesting paper for libsecp256k1 and/or Trezor developers? http://www.cosic.esat.kuleuven.be/publications/article-2475.pdf "The main advantages of the threshold implementation approach are that it provides provable security against first-order DPA attacks with minimal assumptions on the hardware technology, in particular, it is also secure in the presence of glitches, ..." Cum Laude at Dutch Twente University and Belgium Leuven U
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19:24:37aakselrod:sorry :) accident.
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20:39:36KuDeTa:what do the wizards make of 21inc?
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20:51:32Taek:I can't speak for anyone else but I've found it difficult to understand what they are doing and why it's worth so much money
20:51:40Taek:without knowing more, it's difficult to pass judgement
20:54:38hulkhogan_:it almost sounds like they've created a cutting edge asic, and are using mobile as the distribution mechanism.
20:54:47hulkhogan_:its too hard to say without details
20:56:04Taek:mobile is a really weird choice. Your average phone battery has a hard enough time as is
20:56:32Taek:unless their power efficiency is an order of magnitude better than anything else out there, I don't see how mining from a phone could be profitable
20:57:01hulkhogan_:yea, thats my guess- otherwise it doesnt make sense at all (also the amount of money they raised, so they must be on to something (?))
20:57:14KuDeTa:perhaps its more about the wallet technology, and the mining is over-egged. A hardware wallet in every device on the planet..
20:57:56Taek:That makes more sense. Especially if they've reduced the power requirements of running a pruned node.
20:58:54hulkhogan_:they sorta stated wanting to use the tech as a revenue model for 'pay-as-you-go' services, so you mine in the bknd and pay as you consume content (or whatever) to the distributor
20:59:35Taek:maybe they meant by using payment channels? Again I don't see how a phone battery could mine enough bitcoins to 'pay as you go'
21:00:15hulkhogan_:me neither, but if you read the medium announcement, they allude to that a couple times iirc
21:02:13temujin:mining while your phone is charging most likely
21:02:35hulkhogan_:ie "one can imagine the ultimate thin client [...] using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud."
21:02:36temujin:overnight and after work, can be 8-14 hours depending on your lifestyle patterns
21:03:04Taek:I'd definietly be more interested in an asic that heats my home or water tank
21:03:33nsh:* nsh blinks
21:03:39nsh:capitalism is stupid
21:03:56Taek:what specifically?
21:03:58frankenmint:nsh: name a superior system
21:04:08frankenmint:i implore you to
21:04:40nsh:so a bunch of people with smartphones are going to perform a bunch of calculations that are essentially useless so they can buy imaginary items while presumably accidentally also paying for said items with their linked payment card
21:04:57frankenmint:nsh: you must be talking about 21inc
21:05:04nsh:or else somebody else has an incredibly optimistic business model
21:05:10nsh:* nsh nods
21:05:18frankenmint:* frankenmint agrees that is a doomed model
21:05:27nsh:i mean, capitalism is stupid in general, but this is a particularly perplexing example
21:05:33nsh:.ety perplex
21:05:34yoleaux:perplex (v.): "late 14c. as an adjective, "perplexed, puzzled, bewildered," from Latin perplexus "involved, confused, intricate;" but Latin had no corresponding verb *perplectere. The Latin compound would be per "through" (see per) + plexus "entangled," …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=perplex
21:06:07frankenmint:I think the other models allow for gains to be taken from earners
21:06:19frankenmint:which is why all other systems have gradually migrated to captialism
21:07:10nsh:(almost certainly outwith channel scope)
21:07:16frankenmint:the next system volunteerism is still too young and experimental, but I can see it increasing if proven models can indeed transition its users towards a 'utiopia' state
21:07:42hulkhogan_:gime morr cripto
21:08:20frankenmint:hulkhogan_: google DASC reddit, see my answer
21:08:54frankenmint:nvm not indexed yet
21:12:26hulkhogan_:frankenmint: eh, i think nsh's comment was out of context, the weirdness of 21inc's plan is very left-field given what we know about mining economics
21:13:08hulkhogan_:(unrelated to capitalism etc, its partly or wholly nonsensical)
21:13:27hulkhogan_:s/nonsensical/nonsensical given what we know/
21:14:51frankenmint:I just dropped by reddit today and now see its everywhere
21:15:07frankenmint:lol, so basically everyone knew from jump about it once they said quallcomm
21:15:43frankenmint:hulkhogan_: really sucks, If it wasn't 'a phone' I may give it a shot, but because its gonna be near my head and asic chips run hot ....forget that
21:21:05hulkhogan_:yea, lol
21:22:22frankenmint:I could turn this all around right now for them: Make the phones and service free If user agrees to keep them on X hours per month
21:22:51frankenmint:basically once the device 'roi's itself 2x over, then its elegible for an upgrade
21:23:45Taek:Assuming $30 per user
21:23:57Taek:that scales to ~800k users at todays prices
21:24:07frankenmint:yea right unless we're talking feature phones
21:24:08Taek:beyond that there aren't enough bitcoins that can be mined to pay for so many phone bills
21:24:33frankenmint:well, i guess, if they're free that wont matter???
21:25:12frankenmint:lol oh God imagine how THIS would blow up: http://www.reddit.com/r/perktv
21:25:33frankenmint:21 inc phone farms to mine passive + btc
21:46:56nsh:* nsh frowns
22:00:01hulkhogan_:they might have a bunch of partnering agreements already, which might also be the reason its more profitable for them to launch a consumer product vs just mine with new chips
22:02:28nsh:(this is definitely a #bitcoin navel-gazing unless it's somehow inexplicably possible to discuss the actual theoretical advances of this VC moneyhole)
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