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12:41:10NeatBasis:NeatBasis has left #bitcoin-wizards
12:59:51nsh:.ask NeatBasis ootko suomesta? miten hyvin on bitcoinnit tuttunnut siella nykyaan?
12:59:52yoleaux:nsh: I'll pass your message to NeatBasis.
13:24:47fluffypony:frankenmint: the ultimate mining botnet!
13:25:42frankenmint:yea that's really the wrong description to use
13:25:54frankenmint:I mean, comeon- calling it a botnet, its not
13:26:13frankenmint:although it remains to be seen what on earth these guys are thinking
13:26:37frankenmint:Their article said 'software' implementation that can work on existing chip infrastructure
13:26:49frankenmint:so I read that as 'software asics' which makes no sense to me
13:28:15fluffypony:frankenmint: was a joke
13:28:36fluffypony:nsh: can't tell if hashtag or IRC channel
13:28:39frankenmint:nsh: its empty :( 4evr alooonee
13:29:34frankenmint:yea I know, say sorry bout giving you a hard time about my gpu frame comming 5 months later :p
13:30:26frankenmint:fluffypony: know anyone stateside who wants a vitalia standalone here stateside? I've got a brand new one for them
13:30:47fluffypony:unfortunately not :(
13:31:03hashtag:u rang?
13:31:42fluffypony:ok I'm out, speaking at a meetup in Brussels in 3 hours and presentation still needs tweaks
13:33:21frankenmint:tell em honeybadgerofmoney
13:33:37frankenmint:5 dollars gets them involved in the worlds largest grassroots bitcoin promotion!
13:34:27nsh:seriously, random chit-chat to #bitcoin, please
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15:50:52Taek:Would it be an acceptable endgame to have mining become completely inaccessable to the unwealthy, but instead dominated by 5-10 corporations, none of whom have more than 33% hashrate?
15:51:56kanzure:no, because corporations are subject to the law and can be compelled by courts to compromise technical systems
15:52:31Taek:what if each of the corporations is in a separate jurisdiction?
15:53:20Taek:at that point the discussion changes from 'corporations' to 'nation states'
15:55:04Taek:certainly it's less ideal than 1-cpu-1-vote, but in a stable political climate it might be sufficient
15:57:25kanzure:1-cpu-1-vote is not something that exists at the moment
15:58:24Taek:right but it's an ideal I think many researchers are aiming at
16:01:01kanzure:oh, why?
16:01:14kanzure:that's clearly not sybil-resistant
16:01:28kanzure:(since there's no way to identify individual cpus)
16:03:39Taek:* Taek backs up a bit, s/1-cpu-1-vote/fully decentralized mining/g
16:09:20temujin:mining is decentralized enough imo
16:10:27temujin:bitcoin is perfectly parallel, meaning the hashrate landscape can change quickly as individual miners change pools (in the case of a disagreement with pool policy, overcentralization, etc)
16:11:35Taek:temujin: there's significant risk that arises from economies of scale.
16:13:07Taek:A bigger mining investment also has more room to establish itself in places with inherent advantages (such as regions where electricty is cheap), has more ability to collect lots of talent (proprietary and significant ASIC improvements)
16:25:51temujin:is there an alternative?
16:27:17Taek:hopefully. Currently the most promising seems to be the idea of using the waste heat of ASICs as an advantage
16:27:27Taek:heating homes, hot water, etc.
16:28:25Taek:because the asics are now serving 2 purposes instead of 1, there's an efficiency boost
16:28:47Taek:it's not clear though that this will be enough in the long run
16:29:23temujin:haha, my two GPU rigs certainly heated my apartment quite nicely winter 2013... i can see this being true
16:30:20sturles:I still have my GPUs connected to the water pipes for my underfloor heating. :-)
16:31:38sturles:A very profitable way to heat my house back in 2010-2012.
16:32:00sturles:Not GPU mining any more, of course.
17:08:01nsh:all we need, and it can't be that much of an ask, is for the US DoD to reprogram their GPS satellites to act as entropy beacons so that it's possible to cryptographically attest geographic locations
17:08:16nsh:then we can ensure reasonable jurisdictional distribution of miners
17:09:06Taek:you would adjust the difficulty depending on geography?
17:09:30nsh:requires a bit more thought
17:10:09Taek:assuming that you could accurately enforce geographic honesty
17:10:35Taek:I think that it would be a good thing to have
17:10:41nsh:well, you can't, because space doesn't exist. but you can attest to being in a certain locus within a certain timeframe
17:11:26nsh:(what i mean is, you can fake being somewhere else, but you can't fake having the exact information for that position at some exact time)
17:11:41nsh:(if you have to commit to it)
17:12:06Taek:you're still stuck trusting the entropy beacons
17:12:22nsh:* nsh nods
17:13:21nsh:don't the russians have a parallel GPS satnet still, or did they give up?
17:13:53nsh:presumably china will at some stage, so at least you can split the trust between rough geopolitical adversaries
17:14:52nsh:.wik GLONASS
17:14:54yoleaux:"GLONASS (Russian: ГЛОНАСС, IPA: [ɡlɐˈnas]; Глобальная навигационная спутниковая система; transliteration Globalnaya navigatsionnaya sputnikovaya sistema), or "GLObal NAvigation Satellite System", is a space-based satellite navigation system operated by the Russian Aerospace Defence Forces." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS
17:16:12nsh:.wik BeiDou Navigation Satellite System
17:16:13yoleaux:"The BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS, simplified Chinese: 北斗卫星导航系统; traditional Chinese: 北斗衛星導航系統; pinyin: Běidǒu wèixīng dǎoháng xìtǒng) is a Chinese satellite navigation system." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou_Navigation_Satellite_System
17:17:13nsh:but aye, back in the real world, the military of nation-states does not have a great track record in positively responding to my suggestions
20:32:47nsh:* nsh muses
20:49:07Taek:asic-heated consumer appliances may not provide the decentralization we're looking for
20:49:24Taek:it's just another avenue of diversity for much larger mining companies
20:49:46Taek:in all liklihood, the consumers would never touch their miner, the company they bought it from would manage all of the operations
20:50:27Taek:so really it's just centralized around whoever is controlling the software on the appliances
20:51:52kanzure:er, nobody claimed that it was related to diversity
20:51:57kanzure:(or decentralization for that matter)
20:52:19Luke-Jr:Taek: yeah, we need a p2p way to have it mine decentralised IMO
20:52:22kanzure:((got the word wrong))
20:52:41Luke-Jr:detect bitcoind on the LAN automatically and solo mine
20:52:57Luke-Jr:otoh, that's trusting the LAN probably too much.. so :/
20:53:10Taek:kanzure: gavin at least expressed hope that it would increase decentralization
20:53:17Taek:at the Boston dev core
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20:54:47kanzure:specifically he was talking about a chip that is pool-locked?
20:55:56Taek:iirc he was merely talking about using asic's waste heat for other purposes
20:56:01Taek:like water tanks
21:04:16nsh:certainly finding ways to convert sha256 entropy from a problem you have to deal with to an asset is likely to increase asic decentralization
21:04:29nsh:whether that actually increases hashpower decentralization is a different question
21:05:59nsh:* nsh tries to understand djb's number-theory contributions
21:06:58nsh:specifically: "How to find smooth parts of integers." http://cr.yp.to/factorization/smoothparts-20040510.pdf
21:07:14Taek:wrt asic decentralization vs. hashpower decentralization: agree
21:07:22nsh:.seen gmaxwell
21:07:23yoleaux:I saw gmaxwell 15 May 2015 19:13Z in #bitcoin-wizards: So yes, an unspecified different design may have totally different vulnerabilities.
21:07:38yoleaux:Tue, 19 May 2015 21:07:38 UTC
21:07:51nsh:did greg take a holiday or something?
21:08:02nsh:* nsh blinks until that computes
21:08:36nsh:who's going to explain smoothness and elliptic curves and how the latter helps find the former in integers despite having no intrinsic notion of prime divisor itself
21:08:37Taek:I had noticed the same thing. sipa doesn't seem to be around either
21:08:40Taek:.seen sipa
21:08:40yoleaux:I saw sipa 14 May 2015 16:17Z in #bitcoin-wizards: i'll be on vacation the next two weeks
21:08:53nsh:well, that's less of a mystery :)
21:09:10nsh:amiller, andytoshi: ping?
21:11:02nsh:i guess i'll just mash my brain into wikipedia until i find new ways of crying blood through my eyes
21:11:44ajweiss:wikipedia really needs differing depths for mathy/technical things
21:12:45gmaxwell:nsh: sorry, I've been super busy (people will be excited...) and the conversation in here was ... uh not at its best lately.
21:12:49ajweiss:like handwave, intermediate and bored graduate student
21:14:00nsh:gmaxwell, understood (and vicariously / intriguedly excited about the excitements) :)
21:14:32nsh:(and agreed on the signal:noise diminishment)
21:38:15shen_noe:nsh, what do you want to know elliptic curves?
21:44:28nsh:well, first i wanted to know how djb's fast batch-GCD algorithm works, but in order to understand that, i need to know generally how elliptic curves, which don't even have a notion of prime divisors, can facilitate the finding of small prime factors of integers
21:44:39nsh:.wik Lenstra elliptic curve factorization
21:44:40yoleaux:"The Lenstra elliptic curve factorization or the elliptic curve factorization method (ECM) is a fast, sub-exponential running time algorithm for integer factorization which employs elliptic curves. For general purpose factoring, ECM is the third-fastest known factoring method." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenstra_elliptic_curve_factorization
21:45:13shen_noe:I think most of those algorithms are explained in SIlverman book 1
21:45:30shen_noe:can find on bookzz.org
21:45:32shen_noe:I have to run
21:45:46shen_noe:but it's "arithmetic of elliptic curves" joseph silverman
21:45:59shen_noe:towards the end theres a section explaining the basic algorithms
21:46:08nsh:* nsh will find
21:46:09shen_noe:btw e-curves have a different notion of prime divisors
21:46:19shen_noe:so it's not quite correct to say they don't have prime divisors
21:46:37shen_noe:any case, ill be around later
21:47:41nsh:okay, take care :)
21:48:24nsh:(Silverman I is available here, if anyone else is [masochistic and] interested: http://www.pdmi.ras.ru/~lowdimma/BSD/Silverman-Arithmetic_of_EC.pdf )
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23:35:31andytoshi:nsh: hi, same sitch as gmax, what's up?
23:35:59andytoshi:nsh: ohh one sec, iirc the montgomery paper actually has a good high
23:36:04andytoshi:level explanation of that
23:36:31nsh:i want to be hand-holded through difficult number theory because i am a lowly telephone sanitation engineer and they keep kicking me out of maths classes when i sneak into university :)
23:36:46nsh:ah cool
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23:38:14nsh:Speeding the Pollard and elliptic curve methods of factorization - Montgomery, '87 ?
23:38:19andytoshi:yes, thx :)
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23:39:36andytoshi:page 13-14 of the pdf
23:39:43nsh:* nsh reads
23:40:29andytoshi:basically you do ECC operations as though you were in a prime field until they break, then you've detected non-primeness in a way that gives you a factor
23:40:40andytoshi:s/ECC/elliptic curve group/
23:43:32nsh:heh, montgomery's paper refers to pollard's p + 1 method, but wikipedia calls it p - 1
23:43:48nsh:i guess there's little difference
23:44:13nsh:the immediate integers to a large prime are likely to have asymptotically equivalent smoothness
23:44:15nsh:i'd imagine, anyway
23:44:46nsh:(i mean averaging. obviously they will not approximate to a single value)
23:44:57andytoshi:there are actually two methods in the paper, the p-1 and p+1 ... they are quite similar, but there are no asymptotics since this is all discrete
23:45:32nsh:i was just guessing that if you go with -1 then it's about as likely to be smooth as +1
23:45:51nsh:but if the methods are actually different thereafter, then it's an irrelevant observation
23:46:58nsh:oh, p plus 1 is attributed to Williams
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23:47:29nsh:.wik Williams' p + 1 algorithm
23:47:30yoleaux:"In computational number theory, Williams' p + 1 algorithm is an integer factorization algorithm, one of the family of algebraic-group factorisation algorithms. It was invented by Hugh C. Williams in 1982." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams'_p_%2B_1_algorithm
23:47:41nsh:.wik Pollard's_p_−_1_algorithm
23:47:42yoleaux:"Pollard's p − 1 algorithm is a number theoretic integer factorization algorithm, invented by John Pollard in 1974. It is a special-purpose algorithm, meaning that it is only suitable for integers with specific types of factors; it is the simplest example of an algebraic-group factorisation algorithm." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollard%27s_p_%E2%88%92_1_algorithm
23:50:54nsh:* nsh listens to:
23:51:19nsh:Mod-01 Lec-30 Factoring Algorithms -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zvjv2Bf4Xk