00:07:25c0rw|away:c0rw|away is now known as c0rw|zZz
00:17:52maaku:maaku is now known as Guest19249
00:37:55tdryja:tdryja has left #bitcoin-wizards
08:05:18card.freenode.net:topic is: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
08:05:18card.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andy-logbot gielbier ThomasV AaronvanW NewLiberty goregrind Mably nwilcox mjerr gill3s sparetire orperelman luny` d1ggy_ justanotherusr MrTratta TheSeven dc17523be3 PRab TheButterZone nessence_ Dr-G2 PaulCapestany spinza melvster mengine Guest19249 moa execut3 DougieBot5000 chmod755 jb55 jmcn_ bosma Starduster_ devrandom akstunt600 sdaftuar p15_ narwh4l adam3us cdecker Aquentin jtimon badmofo Madars c0rw|zZz mkarrer roybadami LeMiner waxwing
08:05:18card.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: MoALTz digitalmagus UllrSkis lnovy MRL-Relay theymos stonecoldpat epscy dgenr8 mountaingoat SDCDev pollux-bts Jaamg Tebbo rustyn forrestv espes gnusha Cory Luke-Jr tucenaber Emcy bliljerk101 elastoma ThinThread austinhill jonasschnelli huseby null_radix catcow adams__ Taek rasengan cfields btcdrak bedeho phantomcircuit kanzure sadoshi SwedFTP TD-Linux GreenIsMyPepper hulkhogan_ richardus sl01 michagogo otoburb isis ttttemp kinlo EasyAt nephyrin`
08:05:18card.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: Krellan nsh vonzipper larraboj_ mariorz coryfields_ sneak optimator go1111111 stevenroose BlueMatt eric afdudley warptangent ryan-c crescendo prosodyContext mappum wiz nickler_ jbenet kyuupichan livegnik pigeons davout Fistful_of_Coins mikolalysenko fluffypony amiller BananaLotus Logicwax scoria andytoshi superobserver STRML jouke Alanius_ jaromil fenn gribble nanotube Guest68586 grandmaster indolering BrainOverfl0w [ace] catlasshrugged
08:05:18card.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: throughnothing poggy guruvan dignork yoleaux gavinand1esen Anduck veox helo grubles heath roasbeef ggreer Iriez starsoccer binaryatrocity_ Muis Xzibit17 comboy petertodd wumpus a5m0_ jessepollak dansmith_ [d__d] AlexStraunoff sturles HM midnightmagic merlincorey warren azariah_ jrayhawk qawap Meeh_ mm_1 face tromp_ koshii _whitelogger dasource ebfull OneFixt jcorgan sundance bsm117532 CodeShark K1773R gwillen lclc wizkid057 ajweiss so s1w yrashk
08:05:18card.freenode.net:Users on #bitcoin-wizards: CryptoGoon artifexd runeks kumavis platinuum yorick Apocalyptic iddo smooth thrasher` weex berndj harrow harrigan brand0 leakypat Eliel xabbix morcos Graet @ChanServ AdrianG
11:02:00Emcy:is it worth signing up for the new dev list
11:02:10kinlo:aren't we being migrated?
11:02:23Emcy:thats why i said new dev list
11:03:02kinlo:last mail I read was that the new list was in test only, and that you could subscribe to test
11:03:21kinlo:didn't read the last mail yet
11:03:43kinlo:seems we do need to subscribe manually
11:25:12wumpus:yes, you need to subscribe to the new dev list manually. Whether it's worth it is up to you (and off topic), the old one is defunct.
11:32:58kinlo:wumpus: I'd assume ppl would get migrated, but indeed, it's offtopic to discuss the sf soap
11:37:05wumpus:auto-subscribing people to mailing lists is considered bad netiquette, and this is an opportunity to get rid of inactive subscribtions. To see if you missed any messages see the archives: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
11:38:30wumpus:there was an 'emergency migration' mail to the old list, but I think no one got it because of sourceforge's mass bounce mess-up
14:23:14StephenM347:Is there a notation for an HD path of a public point derived from a path of hardened children? i.e. point(m/44'/0'/0')
14:23:40StephenM347:M/44'/0'/0' doesn't really seem right because you can't derive 44' from M
14:24:17StephenM347:By 'a notation' I mean something other than point(...), as that's not really a common notation for a path
14:33:53Eliel:wumpus: at least I received the emergency migration mail.
14:38:32nsh:StephenM347, what's used in the HD wallet BIP?
14:38:52StephenM347:nsh: N(...), I think
14:39:13nsh:serP(point(kpar)) || ser32(i)).
14:39:29nsh:that's a serialized point though i think
14:40:37StephenM347:nsh: I'm more thinking about notation for a parseable path that can be saved and used to re-derive the key later
14:40:49StephenM347:Not notation that is easy to read in a paper or something
14:41:12nsh:* nsh nods
17:17:22jposner_:jposner_ has left #bitcoin-wizards
18:47:27Eliel:Bitcoin has some perceived decentralization problems due to the mining and mining pool thing. I just realized that this is due to the market realizing there are two separate jobs in mining that Bitcoin design tried to mix up. One job is to be a witness (mining pools) for the state of the ledger and the other is to carve the witnessed state into permanent ledger (miners).
18:52:29Eliel:the witness job looks to be one that needs to be tied to an identity. So might as well make use of that and have a cryptographic identity for each witness. Then it'd become possible for witnesses to witness each other witnesseses witnessing and thus form a data structure that could be difficult to forge. Especially if we have miners cementing that structure.
18:55:15Eliel:it'd create a kind of a witness network where the presence of witness loops (or cycles) in the network graph would allow verifying the entire structure as long as you trust one single witness somewhere.
18:56:50Eliel:there could also be two levels of witnesses. Ledger witnesses and witness witnesses. The first ones are those who verify the ledger. The witness witnesses just witness the witnessing and record that.
18:57:15kanzure:yes i believe this strategy is called "ask a friend"
18:57:35nsh:* nsh blinks
18:57:43kanzure:* kanzure witnesses nsh blinking
18:57:52nsh:i'm pretty sure you can't witness things cyclically without a time machine
18:57:57Eliel:* Eliel witnesses kanzure witnessing nsh blinking
18:58:46Eliel:(now, if kanzure witnessed my witnessing of his witnessing, there would be the kind of cycle I talk about)
18:59:11kanzure:and why would that be useful?
18:59:59kanzure:proof-of-work forgeproofing works because it puts an economic floor on the cost of the probability of you being tricked
19:00:20kanzure:otherwise it's just absurdly cheap
19:00:52Eliel:because, everyone who's part of the cycle must cooperate to succesfully falsify the data. If it becomes possible for anyone to be part of the witnessing network...
19:01:13Eliel:well, the data structure would become enormous but no-one needs all of it.
19:01:33kanzure:i'm not sure it requires individuals to falsify the data- for sufficiently large networks, most users will not be able to practically meet and know each person or memorize their keys, so it's more likely that large networks are just randomly generated sybils
19:02:11Eliel:each individual node can do just fine with a few verified "connections" they witness.
19:02:23kanzure:i think that you might have more success narrowing the scope of which things you want to make unfalisifiable
19:02:28Eliel:as long as that connects them to the network
19:02:52Eliel:this is sufficient for timestamping.
19:04:58Eliel:in short, it doesn't matter if falsifying the ledger is simple if anyone you want to fool then has the data they need to prove you abused your witnessing powers.
19:16:28Eliel:in such a case, you don't need a lot of ledger witnesses. As long as it's possible to add more or even completely replace them in the event that the existing ones prove themselves to be completely untrustworthy.
19:54:55zooko:Eliel: I liked Joe Bonneau's paper on "Agile Tokens". It seems kind of relevant to what you were talking about -- "ledger witnesses".
20:16:55waxwing:waxwing is now known as oakpac1fic
20:17:09oakpac1fic:oakpac1fic is now known as waxwing
21:50:59c0rw|zZz:c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
21:53:40jps_:jps_ is now known as jps
22:33:12c0rw1n:c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz