00:29:22gmaxwell:adam wrote a whole post on ring sig this; on bitcointalk
00:30:04gmaxwell:shen_noe: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.msg3298692#msg3298692
00:35:48shen_noe:gmaxwell thanks!
00:40:09shen_noe:wow that's impressively more thought out than mine
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01:41:31gmaxwell:man, PHC mailing list really kinda sucks; it's like sci.crypt in the '90s... full of handwaving noise.
01:42:38gmaxwell:latest thing is someone 'zomg my new scheme is turing complete and thus provably irreducable' and then waving away any need for any further analysis.
01:44:13gmaxwell:Nevermind the fact that it only can reach a tiny subset of all universal circuits of the size in question; and there is no reason to think that the subgroup he can reach isn't dense with trivial circuits. It also ignores the fact that the non-linear compression functions in every other PHC are almost certantly universal in the same way (with sutiable preprocessing); yet many of them have strong
01:44:19gmaxwell:proofs about their behavior that show their action is not trivial.
01:44:51gmaxwell:then the next thread is someone rediscovering collission hashcash POW, and then shortly there after realizing that it its trivially paralizable and has significant TMTO.
01:51:03bramc:Hey everybody
01:51:40midnightmagic:HI bram!
01:52:22bramc:I gave a talk on cryptocurrencies generally at the bitcoin-dev meeting in sf on monday. Hopefully it will be posted online soon.
01:56:00bramc:Also made this less controversial than I expected post: https://medium.com/@bramcohen/the-inevitable-demise-of-unconfirmed-bitcoin-transactions-8b5f66a44a35
01:56:23CodeShark:heh - you did write that up :)
01:57:20bramc:CodeShark, Yes I was totally serious about working on it. Next up: A post on basic fee setting strategy.
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04:32:21dgenr8:bramc: if you're looking for controversy, don't post conventional wisdom ;p
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05:05:59CodeShark:dgenr8: I don't think that post is particularly controversial in this channel - but if you go elsewhere you sometimes find these vehement voices insisting we continue to encourage merchant adoption even if it means encouraging them to accept zero confirmation transactions
05:07:29CodeShark:but I think the "controversy" tends to miss the real point...which is that zero confirmation transactions cannot rely on very much of Bitcoin's security model
05:08:07CodeShark:but it's conceivably ok to accept them given a reasonable security/risk model for the particular use case
05:08:34CodeShark:however, given that most people using bitcoin have no clue what this means it's better to discourage zero confirmation transactions
05:12:22CodeShark:unless we give them good tools to support such use cases (i.e. subscription services that can be pulled upon double-spend detection)
05:12:28dgenr8:CodeShark: people like Balaji Srinivasan say things like "I'm confident the developers are working hard on solving this problem." He's mistaken. And by that I do not mean it's not worth working on. Only that nobody really is.
05:13:03CodeShark:solving which problem? the public perception? or the fact that zero confirmation transactions aren't really secure?
05:14:35CodeShark:or double-spend detection?
05:14:50CodeShark:fairly reliable double-spend detection would already be a significant breakthrough :)
05:15:19CodeShark:the "only relay first" policy makes it trivially simple to split the network
05:15:35petertodd:CodeShark: double-spends can happen succesfully well after the first tx, even without miners adopting rbf
05:15:35dgenr8:CodeShark: no need to convince me
05:16:00petertodd:CodeShark: just run a full-rbf node and watch the logs, you see lots of succesful doublepsends
05:16:32CodeShark:petertodd: yes, I'm not saying that absence of a double-spend detection implies the unconfirmed transaction is safe :)
05:16:54CodeShark:I'm just pointing out that our current tools don't even do this particularly well
05:16:57petertodd:CodeShark: point is, without the ability to do something about the double-spend, it doesn't help much
05:17:35CodeShark:petertodd: you can if you're selling services like web hosting :)
05:17:42dgenr8:petertodd: doing something about it is not the realm of bitcoin. it's in the realm of real life
05:17:57petertodd:CodeShark: if you're selling web-hosting, learning about the double-spend when the tx confirms is fine
05:18:04petertodd:dgenr8: ^
05:18:34dgenr8:CodeShark: bramc compares zeroconf to life before bitcoin. that fails to ask how the existence of the blockchain alters the problem. i've looked into it somewhat https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md
05:20:15CodeShark:ultimately I think the blockchain is a dispute resolution mechanism. problem is we have no retroactive repudiation mechanisms :)
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05:20:41CodeShark:it's a feature...and a flaw
05:20:54CodeShark:depending on your point of view :)
05:23:00CodeShark:I think it's dangerous to rely on relay nodes enforcing rules. unfortunately, we've sort of ended up in exactly this situation
05:23:17gmaxwell:relay nodes enforcing doesn't do much good in any case.
05:26:43dgenr8:there's a tendency to define the p2p network as what it isn't, and if everything you hear is true, it's not much of anything ;) otoh if having contracts with miners is bad, the p2p network has to be something.
05:28:47gmaxwell:dgenr8: what do you know about people making "contracts" with miners?
05:31:16dgenr8:only what coinbase wrote on the mailing list, which seemed a natural reaction to full-rbf
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14:05:59CodeShark:CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is the new GOTO :)
14:27:05ThinThread:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal (other than slaves), that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
14:43:13prosodyContext:thinthread: We hold thlog truths to be self-node~~nt~~ && decentralized* ./∫rename trying to put the bitriotic into your patriotic hurts. :∫
14:48:39ThinThread:i think Thomas Jefferson knew fucking his slave was wrong (even if in "love"), so he consciously slipped that beautiful egalitarian language into pact agreeable to the southern states, to set timebomb of civil war and emancipation
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15:56:36nickler_:Are there any known sybil resistant multi-party coin flipping protocols? The problem with commitment based constructions appears to be that an attacker can refuse to reveal if another of his identities profits. Time-lock encryption seems to be able to solve this.
17:30:46bramc:nickler_, You don't even need any new locktime opcode, the existing locktimes on transactions are sufficient.
17:57:56nickler_:bramc: Sufficient for what?
17:58:19bramc:nickler_, Sufficient to implement fair gambling.
17:59:52bramc:nickler_, https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/784.pdf
18:05:28nickler_:bramc: ah, thanks, I'll have a look
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20:49:14Anduck:just wondering, could the single-show scheme work with sequence numbers?
20:53:15Anduck:probably nvm for now, gotta think more
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